Dear arrogant young punk,

Some grumpy old farts have some wisdom and experience on their side and prefer to chose how to spend their time to make the best of our final hours her on Planet Earth.

There is not sufficient information on which to perform genetic testing that can help identify synonyms accurately.  Perhaps, if you have millions of dollars at your disposal, you can get it done.  Having people toss around synonyms and then hoping to somehow detect the errors is very wishful and arrogant thinking, in my opinion.

Here is some of the information my geneticist friend shared with me last year: (note: SSR are what were used by USDA Davis)

bottom line is synonyms are just that. same or similar varieties based on someone else's observation at location unknown. if you are after making this complete and comprehensive list... well good luck. i like to eat figs. finding out what they are similar or same to isn't on top of my list.

There is no handy condensed chart that will help simplify Figs. This project is akin to wanting to rename the planets, or take the long words out off tbe dictionary. Your pm was weird. I do however admire your enthusiasm. Weirdly enthusiastic? Can't fault you there. Apparently you are a Jedi Fig Fanatic!

Negronne = 'Rouge de Bordeaux, Pastilere’

Negronne is used in place of VdB. however, some say they are different. Pastiliere is some times considered to be Rouge dB. but that remains to be seen. sometimes Pastilere is also known as Hirta du Japon.

synonyms are not very useful. it's lot of guess work. unless you have all the trees to compare, it's lot of guessing at what might be.

It seems most  synonyms are not a problem,  Mary Lane is Jelly etc.  Those could be listed without great dispute.  The varieties that have so much controversy are hopeless untill accurate DNA tests.  In the meantime I would love a list of the non-disputed synonyms for easier reference.  At my level of fig growing I dont care which I have of VdB, Negronne,or Vista etc , if they're all the same tree.  In fact when I placed my first order with Encanto Farm they were out of VdB and said I could substitute with Negronne because it was the same. That's fine with me.
 I dont see how the list could not improve awareness of fig IDs, at least for those with less experience.

What this thread has revealed is the character of those who can remain civil when in disagreement and those who become rude and hostile.

OK, ladies and gents... , now that I am back from NY trip to medical convention, let me read and answer some messages here.
hm, a lot of little nothings as a riot to what i'm trying to accomplish but nothing we can't ignore.

@Harvey; to your question "What precisely is your goal in attempting to come up with a list of synonyms?"
( i will answer to this only, because it is the most important question)

Answers:
1) To create a list of fig names and to see, in all in one sheet, what else is that variety called in order to stop the confusion to ask ourselves "do I need to buy THIS variety which is a synonym to THAT variety". In fact, I know from fact that some experienced sellers cash in on that concept of confusion by selling the same fig under different names to newbies or general enthusiasts in order to make few more dollars. This is out of greed and, if you ask me, is dishonest. One example of this is that I have VdB but am still looking for RdB... look what our dear Bollet08 just spilled out for us "Negronne is used in place of VdB. however, some say they are different. Pastiliere is some times considered to be Rouge dB. but that remains to be seen. sometimes Pastilere is also known as Hirta du Japon." no skit Sherlock!
Would I buy RdB if I came across just to fulfill my desire? Yes I would Harvey, I would because I didn't know that VdB and RdB are probably same fig :)
2)Furthermore to advance to the point that the list will have pictures of all different shapes of the figs from same variety and all different shape leaves of same variety attached to the list (forget DNA, I am getting the point that concerns you and few others...I get it, DNA is not a reliable source of test from UC Davis yet, just because they have never had enough baseline samples to compare with, but this was back in SEVERAL YEARS AGO as you said, things change rapidly in science my friend and your information could be very outdated. So lets keep things on positive note.
 3) you mentioned this " In other words, the same variety can perform differently in different environments.  Further, different varieties can perform the same as other varieties in other climates."  this is where DNA will come handy and one day we will have that too. And when we do, all the made up names of the figs that have been created here in this forum by very same oldfarts (as you say) will be vanished because then we will all know what the true variety that made up name fig was.
See Harvey, this is why I say it is very important for old timers to participate in this subject because, just like you, they can bring up issues that will help us see more clearly why we have to complete this task. So, instead of fighting it, why don't we all join hands and knowledge with wisdom and experience and try to accomplish something that has never been done before:)
...and Harvey, thanks for calling me a PUNK. makes me feel younger ;)

I know some people got freaked out from the fact that I had sent PM to them of this thread without any intro of myself.
My sincere apologies to all who thought this was a spam or self promotion.

@ChillyNPhilly: I'm not sure if you meant it with a good intention but I think I like the Jedi Fig Fanatic, haha ;)

Please stop with the insults there is really no need for it, some of these members have given me a lot of good information.
The problem you have with this list is it's all hear say, and unless you have all the trees growing side by side you can't say properly what they are. There are far too many variables from creating a list from what members "think", it would not be very factual.

an interesting topic Aharon . Thanks for bringing this issue up ,though makes fig growing less romantic....:)

Aaron, The RDB that you want is Ronde de Bordeaux. That's what most people refer to as RDB.

HOW BOUT THOSE FIGS!!!!!!!!!

Love you guys and gals!!!!!!

What I wonder is if this or any data base could possibly keep up with all the new names as there are those out there trolling neighborhoods for cuttings and then just making up names for those cuttings. They say they acknowledge that they are unknowns and that "unknown" should be part of the name but soon afterwards the unknown is dropped (if it was ever used) and we have yet another name for a fig that person did little or nothing to ID.
How many names will Negronne, for example, end up with?

http://www.figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1274959646&postcount=7

Gofigure, grow up.  Aaron took my post and used it as a basis for arguing that it proved it was worth this endeavor.  I believe I've got more insight to offer on this matter than you can comprehend.

I continue to see many errors posted in the synonyms being offered here and don't see any method for ensuring those errors are going to be weeded out.  This is an impossible task, in my judgement, not just difficult.

Vista definitely is not Mission.  Vista is at least similar to VdB but is either slightly different (i.e., superior strain) or maybe a cleaner sample (less FMV).

Figo Preto may be the same as Black Madeira and may just be a cleaner version (less FMV) or slightly different genetics.  We don't know and have no way of knowing outside of some very extensive genetic testing.

What I said before was enough.  You want to continue the discussion, it will just get more confusing and more mistakes will be posted.

Calling you an arrogant punk wasn't appropriate but calling folks "old timers" and "old farts" is not any sort of way to talk to folks when you really want their help.

FIG IDENTITY

FIG CULTIVAR NAMES AND TYPES SOMETIMES CONFUSING TO INEXPERIENCED (AND EXPERIENCED) FIG GROWERS

The (White) Marseilles figs

The Honey figs

The Kadota figs

The Mount Etna figs

The Celeste figs

The Brown Turkey figs

The Texas Everbearing figs

The Brunswick figs

The Mission figs

The Bordeaux figs

The light LSU figs

The dark LSU figs

The Dalmatie figs

The Palermo Red figs

The Paradiso figs

The Strawberry figs

Ad Infinitum

What might be useful is a fig wiki. Wikifig. Or Wikicarica.

Wiki-like entries on any or all cultivars and issues of concern...

A fig wiki could go hand-in-hand with the F4F Varieties database and with the F4F Forum and would inevitably both build from them and should contribute back to them.

Might be too expensive and time consuming to set up and keep running -- I don't know.

 Tony, That sounds like the way to go.  That breaks this down into bite sized peices.

Here is some of the basis for my concern:

In a banana forum that both Jon and I are members of and where I am a moderator, there was a lengthy "discussion" of the merits of a particular banana where misnaming is about as rampant as with figs.  One person who particularly disliked the selling of one particular "variety" ranted about how it was the same as another commonly grown banana.

Jon ended up quoting those comments in his banana variety list.  People often mistake the descriptions/info in a variety on Jon's lists as those of his own.

Many months or maybe even a year later, the "discussion" is continuing.  Someone else quotes the information from Jon's site to argue that the two varieties were the same.  He did not realize that he was just quoting from someone else earlier in the thread who was no more of an authority than anyone else in the discussion.

So, once someone suggests a synonym, there is a great deal of risk that someone else will quote that later on or use it in making their own decision.

I am somewhat perplexed at how often people find an "unknown" fig and then try to slap a name of a known variety.  I think there much greater risk in mistakenly calling different figs the same name then calling the same fig different names.

I mentioned my Ischia Black experience earlier.  It goes further than what I discussed.  I two "Black Ischia" plants grown from cuttings from Prusch Park.  They aren't anything at all like Ischia Black.  I have been unable to determine who contributed that plant to the park but the CRFG chapters have distributed cuttings from this tree for years as Black Ischia.  I intervened this year and it got distributed as "unknown fig".

Since figs grow so easily from birds dropping seeds, I think there are thousands of different figs out in the world and trying to match these up to perhaps 100 or 200 names is surely to occur.  There are many different figs that have been called Brown Turkey.

Aaron has alleged that some people purposely use different names to profit from the confusion but I don't see any evidence of that myself.  I purchased Vista from Jon many years ago and am selling it as Vista.  I am not about to call it Violette de Bordeaux because I don't know that they are the same and Jon's own comments are that it performs differently for him.

I believe that the evidence is quite clear to the contrary, however.  Some people do sell unknown figs as a fig with a popular name.  There are several fake Black Madeira on eBay right now.

Hi,

In fact what we all need is facts... So for fig trees, photos of the tree, of the leaves and of the fruits brebas and main crop.

I'm surprised that over the years that kind of infos are not available in the forum - but all I understand is that there are less people wanting to communicate such infos.
Well, let the ones that are willing to share, do it but accurately ... as for the others, there should be no problem.
Making a list with no proofs is always arguable and I can understand that point.
Making that list would require several members to have already those strains, and this is not the situation , although some seem to have big collections.
As for the named ones I have, next year I should have some datas, and I will post, to document the strains I have.

And I will speak of two named strains to show you how this information is interesting:

Strain 1 : Ice crystal : I've read that it is unifera, then I saw a video on the tube saying it's bifera ... ???
              Well next year I'll know ... I bought one...

Strain 2 : Panache / French panache : Baud describes it as unifera - A neighbor has it - and from what I can see it is "really" unifera and the figs are small.
              I saw a post on this forum about a panache fig that was twice or 3 times the expected max size ?!?
              If I come across that strain of big panache, I'll buy it ! but not the small as the small needs a long hot season to ripen with no rain while ripening or they "explode".
              I saw some Italian strains of striped figs that could be a match for the big panache fig strain ... But I'll never know I suppose ...

As for having all the strains listed ... Screw it ! Just go to the Mediterranean belt and you'll understand why ... To make a long story short, do you know the "old Mac Donald song" ?
And a fig fig tree here and a fig fig tree there , everywhere there is a fig fig tree ... Old Mac Donald has a farm ...
Even on buildings as famous as the "Pont du gard", there are fig trees growing - They are cut off each season, but they keep on coming back .

So concentrating the infos on named strains would already be nice.
As another example, I saw a strain named "Tena" which Baud classifies as cold hardy ... I've never seen it in any nursery here ... Perhaps one day ... Who knows . I'll keep lurking ! - I was able to find an "Ice crystal" after all ... Just hype some say !

Harvey,
Last year I had multiple examples of Vista, Negronne and Violette de Bourdeaux all growing together side by side. I bought these from as many different sources as was convenient. Vista was unlike (and far superior) to the others. Just FYI - I, too, would not lump Vista in with the others. The grouping also contained a number of other similar figs, but the point is/was whether Vista was a VdB/Negronne. I do not believe it is. This was the second year I did this so I'll do it at least one more time before I decide to adjust my numbers.
I tend to try and get as many examples of certain figs to grow side by side to compare. I know certain other members like Dennis that have all the available Marseilles types (as I do) so they can be grown together for comparison. I'm currently doing this with a number of groupings I'm interested in. The information from doing this seems valuable to me as I try and discover who's happy and who's in need of change.

Aaron,
Perhaps you could tell us something about yourself that pertains to experience or knowledge about fig trees (or any group of plants) so we have some idea of your ability to see this project through to fruition. I, and several other members I'm close to, have spent a large amount of time working on a system to help I D fig varieties and have taken many many photographs. Because you are a bit of an unknown it's hard to think about just handing over work we've all been doing over years of keeping figs. This is a very large project and I, for one, have no idea if you are the right person to head it up. You may be. I just don't know so I'm asking you for some sort of bio or resume as pertaining to skills appropriate to this group of skills.
I also have a few questions:
Who will be the judge(s) that will decide if one name is more appropriate then another? How silly does a name have to be before it's removed from a variety and who makes that/those decisions? I see in the lists above definite mistakes. Do you have the knowledge or ability to access the information needed to determine how accurate the different names are?
The info needed to ID and straighten out the mess you say you want to fix is not easily available. As a matter of fact I'm always a bit amazed at how little info exists about figs and all things pertaining to them. It's quite natural to want to fix this mess and I understand and applaud your efforts in trying to find a way to do so.

I don't want to discourage you.
I wish you'd thought about the PM's you sent as first impressions certainly do count.
There is a need for folks with energy to help push the foundation forward, etc.

I do hope the sniping ends and we can have a more mellow conversation about this and I think you need to outline this project in a way that makes it more real and easier to see. It's not always easy to be a leader but if that's what you want you'll need to show me (at least) you understand issues.
However it goes, good luck. It may take a long time and numerous attempts to get the results you want.

Aaron4USA,
There is a much simpler and easier way to proceed with your project.

There are two Databases already constructed and published that have listed Cultivars and Synonyms, I’ve put most of the "common” named varieties into a simple easy to read spreadsheet which I offered to you earlier in this Topic (post # 27). If you wanted to compile a comprehensive list, you could start by adding all the Synonyms listed at UC Davis/GRIN for those Cultivars, then add all the Synonyms listed at Encanto Farms Varieties page  (post # 46) for those cultivars and for all the newly named cultivars. That data could then be proofed for inaccuracies and edited by those interested in your project. Most of the synonyms that are being listed in this topic are already documented in the Encanto Farms Data.
 

Personally my procedure for researching aliases for a cultivar that I’m interested in acquiring is a simple Google search it will find all the pertinent information available, including this discussion…

Good Luck.

http://figs4fun.com/Varieties.html
http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/tax_site_acc.pl?DAV%20Ficus%20carica
Fig_Cultivar_Grouping_Preliminary_9-29-13.pdf