What is a well rooted cutting waiting for delaying shoots for many weeks and sometimes months ?

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OttawanZ5

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Posts: 2,551

Posted 1453786549 · Edited	Reply with quote #1

So many times a cutting will show shoots even before the root initial appears. But then there are many cases where a healthy cutting, with a number of nodes under the soil surface, will get a bundle of good roots but no shoots for many weeks. I have seen examples when shoot appears from under the soil surface after a few weeks but other times nothing happens for many weeks and sometimes months. Sometimes roots brown up and give up I guess and the bark either shrivel or the bark gets mushy and separates from the wood if over-moist soil. What is botanical explanation as to what goes on under the soil surface in such cases? what causes suchh delays? __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

Figglet

Registered:1416863929
Posts: 69

Posted 1453787171	Reply with quote #2

I'm far from an expert but, my best guess would be it's mineral deficient/dehydrated and is prioritizing the spread of its root over its leaves as it couldn't support them the other way around. That or there's a magical root gnome that randomly decides your cuttings fate. I personally think it's the root gnome __________________ Amateur Fig Addict Truman Z8b Oregon Varieties I'm looking for: -Battaglia Green -Ronde de Bordeaux Growing: Negronne, Stella, Peters Honey/Kadota, Local Unk, Smith, Antigone Unk, Black Madiera, Yellow Neches, Col De Dame Blanc.

OttawanZ5

Registered:1192897779
Posts: 2,551

Posted 1453792824	Reply with quote #3

Thanks for your input. These reluctant cuttings are in a 4'L, 2'W x 2'H rooting tent at 76~77F and 50~60% RH along with other cuttings that have rooted and shooted, both having come from same sources with similar path and rooting medium (from source to short storage to Sphagnum moss to soil). That is what makes the situation mysterious. We often would not question such behaviour if they were being rooted in isolation with no comparison with others subjected to the process under the same conditions. __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

Rewton

Registered:1291943117
Posts: 1,946

Posted 1453819041	Reply with quote #4

Ottawan, I generally have good success propagating figs; however, the situation you describe is my biggest problem. I have four cuttings (two cuttings each of two varieties from Italy) that were started in October that put out roots in about 3 weeks and still have not put out leaves. Two other cuttings taken at the same time and subjected to the same conditions (but from a 3rd variety) also put out roots first but then later put out leaves and are doing well. I did use dilute rooting hormone on all 6 of those cuttings (30 second dip of bottom end in 10x dip 'n grow) but I doubt if this is the explanation. It does seem as though there is some relationship to the variety. More recently when starting my own cuttings I have had really good success with using very short (but relatively thick) cuttings of just 1-2 nodes buried under the surface of potting mix in 18 oz cups and combining this approach with the 3-cup method previously described on this forum. __________________ Steve MD zone 7a

starch

Registered:1444492067
Posts: 123

Posted 1453820650	Reply with quote #5

I'm with Figglet, definitely a root gnome __________________ Location: USDA Zone 9b / Sunset 13. Chandler, AZ Currently producing fruit and scions: Violette de Bordeaux, Panache, Black Mission, Black Jack, Smith, Col de Dame Gris, Marseilles Black VS, Red Lebanese (Bekaa) Small Trees / Currently rooting: lots Wish List: Ponte Tresa, Italian 258, Genovese Nero (not Rob's)

ricky

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Posts: 214

Posted 1453833338 · Edited	Reply with quote #6

In this post: http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/japanese-fig-growing-techniques-%E3%82%A4-%E3%83%81%E3%82%B8-%E3%82%AF-%E3%81%AE-%E6%A0%BD%E5%9F%B9-7900438?pid=1290673344 and This very simple Japanese grower guide http://www.ari.pref.niigata.jp/nourinsui/manual/ichijiku/ktichimanu.pdf It seems that it is something to do with small bud above node area, If it is flat and weak, It will take longer time to develop to shoot. Sometime, If it has both figlet bud beside leaf bud, it will take longer time to develop leaf shoots. __________________ - BC, Canada, PNW Zone 8 with windy ( Zone7 - branches damage at winter) - Wish list - Granthams Royal, RdB, any heavy breba varieties or early one crop varieties.

Rewton

Registered:1291943117
Posts: 1,946

Posted 1453836194	Reply with quote #7

Ricky, now that I think about it, the cuttings I have that tend to have this problem were taken from the end of branches and have the terminal bud on them. I'm actually thinking of cutting that terminal bud off to activate nodes further down. It's a desperation move but they have been sitting there without leaves for months. __________________ Steve MD zone 7a

starch

Registered:1444492067
Posts: 123

Posted 1453837211	Reply with quote #8

Quote: Originally Posted by Rewton Ricky, now that I think about it, the cuttings I have that tend to have this problem were taken from the end of branches and have the terminal bud on them. I'm actually thinking of cutting that terminal bud off to activate nodes further down. It's a desperation move but they have been sitting there without leaves for months. That is an interesting theory. I have a few that are rooting very slowly too. And they are either really thick cuttings or they are terminal end cuttings. Please let us know the results of this experiment if you decide to go through with it! I might try it as well. __________________ Location: USDA Zone 9b / Sunset 13. Chandler, AZ Currently producing fruit and scions: Violette de Bordeaux, Panache, Black Mission, Black Jack, Smith, Col de Dame Gris, Marseilles Black VS, Red Lebanese (Bekaa) Small Trees / Currently rooting: lots Wish List: Ponte Tresa, Italian 258, Genovese Nero (not Rob's)

Garlic_Mike

Registered:1442372397
Posts: 251

Posted 1453844385	Reply with quote #9

I have two types that I had not given up on and removed the pots today. One was fresh cut, small leaf then died, Salem Dark, and the second was dormant older wood, Brooklyn White. They were planted in late October and the cuttings always felt firm in the pot, so I kept up hope. Both containers have significant root growth to the bottom, and no leaves. I have a Carini that did this. It eventually sent up a shoot at the edge of the container. I think the others will come along. I think losing @10 F in the basement from winter slowed things a bit. I'll try to get up a couple pics. Mike

pitangadiego

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Posts: 5,447

Posted 1453868417	Reply with quote #10

Had a few that rooted like crazy - better than almost any cutting has ever rooted, and they never broke a bud, even in a warm green house, when everything around them was doing fine. Just the vagaries of dealing with living organisms, I assume. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

Blackfoot

Registered:1437593776
Posts: 112

Posted 1453898728	Reply with quote #11

I have just had a similar experience. Five cuttings of varying thickness. All off one stem. All cut from a local unknown so the. cuttings were very fresh. My 1st attempt I used rooting hormone. In a matter of less than a week it had pushed a bundle of roots out. Put it in Promix HP....nothing. Never a leaf.Thinking it was the rooting hormone I did not use it the 2nd time. But I did score the cutting. Same thing. Large bundle of roots in less than a week. But no leaves ever appeared. The cutting shriveled and the roots eventually died. Third time I did not score and no rooting hormone. Roots appeared quickly. No leaves. No bud swell. 4th 5th. Now I will go in the spring when there is active growth. It may be that particular stem just had some type of defect. __________________ Zone 7A NJ Wish List: Nothing now. I am in way over my head.

OttawanZ5

Registered:1192897779
Posts: 2,551

Posted 1455947883	Reply with quote #12

It is getting frustrating now. The roots started 40 days ago but still no shoot. The roots are healthy and fresh and thriving. Two small buds above the soil are doing nothing! I hope that a bud or two under the soil surface may be dong well and may eventually make it to the surface. I will be disappointed if it eventually fails. This is the only cutting i have of this variety. -------------------------------------- __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

Rewton

Registered:1291943117
Posts: 1,946

Posted 1455976411 · Edited	Reply with quote #13

Ottawan, this is anecdotal but I have fount recently but exposing the nodes to as much direct sun as possible in front of a south facing window seems to trigger them to put out a shoot. Of course you need to the temperature to be optimal as well but it seems like the sunlight really helps. __________________ Steve MD zone 7a

kyyada

Registered:1391503601
Posts: 20

Posted 1455985450	Reply with quote #14

Quote: Originally Posted by OttawanZ5 So many times a cutting will show shoots even before the root initial appears. But then there are many cases where a healthy cutting, with a number of nodes under the soil surface, will get a bundle of good roots but no shoots for many weeks. I have seen examples when shoot appears from under the soil surface after a few weeks but other times nothing happens for many weeks and sometimes months. Sometimes roots brown up and give up I guess and the bark either shrivel or the bark gets mushy and separates from the wood if over-moist soil. What is botanical explanation as to what goes on under the soil surface in such cases? what causes suchh delays? Google blind eyes in fruit trees __________________ KY Zone 6b ~ 7a

OttawanZ5

Registered:1192897779
Posts: 2,551

Posted 1455995113 · Edited	Reply with quote #15

KY I did google 'blind eyes in fruit trees' but could not find anything related to the issue. Can you elaborate? __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

kyyada

Registered:1391503601
Posts: 20

Posted 1456000255	Reply with quote #16

http://forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/threads/citrus-tbudding.23274/ This thread talks about it. Fast flush of growth causes it. __________________ KY Zone 6b ~ 7a

OttawanZ5

Registered:1192897779
Posts: 2,551

Posted 1456003774	Reply with quote #17

Thanks Kayyada. The cutting was received in trade so hard to say which part of the tree branch it came from. Now only time will tell if the good roots will eventually brown up and give up or a good shoot will appear eventually. It is all part of the rooting fun in winter. __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

tylerj

Registered:1347291507
Posts: 646

Posted 1456005726	Reply with quote #18

I've had quite of a few of those myself Akram.. 4 this winter. Its quite frustrating to see a cutting with a cup full of roots and no growth when the one right next to in in the same environment does well. Last year I had one that went 4 months before it finally pushed out growth. But usually the cutting eventually fails from my experience. I don't know if this would do anything or not but what if you put that cup in the fridge and force it into dormancy for a couple months?? Maybe that would trigger growth when you took it out?? Just thinking out loud actually lol . __________________ London, Ontario zone 6a Wish List: Martinenca Rimada, Genovese Nero AF, Galicia Negra, Brooklyn White

kyyada

Registered:1391503601
Posts: 20

Posted 1456006702	Reply with quote #19

You might could graft something on it! If it died back it would be what the rootstock was... __________________ KY Zone 6b ~ 7a

jdsfrance

Registered:1376988473
Posts: 2,591

Posted 1456009301	Reply with quote #20

Hi Ottawan, Since roots are growing, they are seeking nutrients. So I would give some fertilizer to that cutting. Once it will have all reserves full, it will send a shoot ... or die . But at least, you've done your max. I had one send shoots from under the dirt last year. As of today, that pot has 3 root-shoots, one big, one medium and one that I just spotted yesterday. So for me, that cutting is trying to find a nutrient that it is missing. Once it has gathered everything, it will send a bud or a stem. Last year, I fertilized mine, used patience and it worked . If you let it on its own, it may exhaust its reserves and die from something it is missing. In such a case, I prefer to possibly kill them with too much (fertilizer) rather than with not enough and having regrets. Just, my way ... __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

pino

Registered:1383190021
Posts: 2,117

Posted 1456016804	Reply with quote #21

I am also having this happen with cuttings from December. Last week put the cutting bin in a sunny window during the day and now am starting to see some buds breaking out. It could just be the timing. But I feel the Sun light does help by give penetrating heat and fuller light spectrum hitting the exposed cutting. __________________ Pino, zone 6, Niagara, JCJ Acres Wish; Peace on earth and more figs Italian 258, Galicia Negra, Luv, trade suggestions welcome.

OttawanZ5

Registered:1192897779
Posts: 2,551

Posted 1456024140	Reply with quote #22

jdsfrance Thanks. That is what I have been thinking i.e. to fertilize but was hesitant for fear of drowning it in moisture for a longer period than it would have been if it had some leaves to transpire. But with another opinion, your's, I did it. I fertilized it with a liquid 'plant starter fertilize 10-52-10' because that was the only kind available inside; other kinds are under 2.5 ft of snow outside in a storage. To drain some of the moisture from rooting medium as a precaution,, I placed tissue paper wicks in the bottom holes to draw out the excess moisture at the bottom. Now it is more fun for figs to watch. __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

Mario_1

Registered:1398299123
Posts: 407

Posted 1456059870	Reply with quote #23

i would reepot ,that will help the roots stay alive longer, also fertilize and expose to sun __________________ Wallingford CT, USA zone 6a would be happy to meet and get together with other members near me Wish list; Any fig from any specific place anywhere in Italy

Jodi

Registered:1443230258
Posts: 343

Posted 1456062375	Reply with quote #24

So I have several rooted cuttings seemingly stuck in limbo too. What fertilizer (numbers, brand) do you recommend? __________________ In the book the "The Meaning of Trees" it is said the fig regulates the heart and that the true essence of Figs is...food for the soul. Daisy's IBT cuttings will be available in January/February along with a few Lampeira Parda. Wishes for Martinenca Rimada, Black Ischia, I258, CddRoja, Jolly Tiger, Your favorite Figgy! Zone 8a Camp Verde AZ

OttawanZ5

Registered:1192897779
Posts: 2,551

Posted 1456090968	Reply with quote #25

Jodi, I am not expert but since it is related to greening and leafing so my guess (only) would be some kind of high nitrogen fertilize. Bur it is only a guess and wait until someone who knows says something. __________________ Ottawan-Z5a, Canada

Windowsill_Gardens

Registered:1391200561
Posts: 75

Posted 1456174321	Reply with quote #26

I have a Salce cutting that is finally pushing out its first leaf after two months. I just kept giving it diluted fertilizer, light, and warmth. The cutting has great roots, so it should make for a strong and healthy tree. It was a thicker cutting, so maybe it didn't feel pressured to hurry and make leaves. I didn't want it using up all it's reserves though. __________________ Danielle: Massachusetts, zone 5

shortrader

Registered:1460031774
Posts: 3

Posted 1470933484	Reply with quote #27

Can you share how you preroot your cuttings? Do you score or use any rooting hormone?

ADelmanto

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Posts: 911

Posted 1470934453	Reply with quote #28

I'm in this boat with a few cuttings. Now it's August and barely any evidence of life from above soil level. What fert would you recommend. I usually do not fert until a good amount of leaf growth but enough is enough. Time to start growing! __________________ https://www.facebook.com/From-The-Ground-Up-403313193085649/

rcantor

Registered:1309799312
Posts: 5,724

Posted 1470942348	Reply with quote #29

Anything that doesn't burn the plant will be good. Just use what you have. __________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.

Mario_1

Registered:1398299123
Posts: 407

Posted 1470944029	Reply with quote #30

If you have good roots I would try giving it something high in nitrogen, that's the first number __________________ Wallingford CT, USA zone 6a would be happy to meet and get together with other members near me Wish list; Any fig from any specific place anywhere in Italy

ADelmanto

Registered:1359774201
Posts: 911

Posted 1470965262	Reply with quote #31

I went out and got some Ozmicote, some kind of iron stuff that is supposed to make the leaves green, and pellitized lime. I'll mix them all up and give them a shot. 4" pots maybe 2 tablespoons or so. Fingers crossed. I've got 1 really nice variety that has parked itself on just cracking a bud for 3 weeks. In the same time other varieties have grown a foot. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/From-The-Ground-Up-403313193085649/

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