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Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > Is Scotts Black = LSU Black ?
 
 


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paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
Read info from Durio nursery citing Scott's Black is a release from LSU. Well, any possibilities Scott's Black is also
known as LSU Black  ? Hope someone could clarify this.
Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 

I can't clarify this,but can tell you from experience that Scott's black is a wonderfull tasting cultivar,but,it does need more heat than others,so I doubt it will be good for your North west Climate.
daygrower

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
I have a fig from Just Fruits and Exotics that they call LSU Scotts Black that would lead me to believe they are the same.
Of course my knowledge of figs would fill a post it note :)
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Fatnsassytexan

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Paully, I asked that exact question to Dalton a few days ago and he said he had never heard of LSU Black, only LSU Scott's Black. I thought I read somewhere that JR in Louisiana had the LSU Black before, but can't find it now. I'll have to give him a call.
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Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Dalton at Durio's and James Robin at KT Nursery are not experts on the LSU figs.  I specialize in the LSU bred figs and am studying quite a few little known Dr. O'Rourke selections that came out of his breeding program.

LSU Scott's Black and LSU Late Black are two entirely different figs. Neither one was officially released by LSU. There is a third black one called St. Gabriel Black which I am studying also. I have yet to determine if it is different than the other two sibling black LSU figs.

For further info only...........

There are at least three sibling figs from the LSU program that are in the retail trade and known as LSU Improved Celeste. One produces yellow figs,  the second one has tri lobed and five lobed leaves......this one is also known as O'Rourke. The third one has single lobed and tri lobed leaves only (never ever has a five lobed leaf).....this one is known as LSU Improved Celeste.  All three were sibling figs from a Celeste mother and all three are entirely different cultivars. I am 1000% sure of what info I have just given.

Dan
paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks to all. Interesting fig world. Good info and somewhat more confused.
noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Hi Dan!

I have read somewhere on the forums that the O'Rourke that Dalton has is a true O'Rourke, with the 3 and 5-lobed leaves.  Do you know anything about that?

Thanks,

Vivian
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snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Noss, I can answer that question.  The answer is yes.  I have 2 of Dalton's O'Rourke fig trees.  The figs are very unique. And his shipping is very professional.  cheers,
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Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Noss,

LSU did attempt to license their last three official fig releases.....Tiger, O'Rourke, and Champagne. In LSU's official release document, it was stated that O'Rourke had been tested as LSU Improved Celeste and that Champagne had been tested as Golden Celeste. Dalton's dad was given an opportunity to bid on exclusive licensing rights to the new fig releases. There were no takers by any Nursery on those licensing rights because it was "believed" that those cultivars were already out in circulation. And because there really is NO MONEY to be made by buying a license. After the official release by LSU, Dalton renamed the LSU Improve Celeste that he had as O'Rourke......so did others who were selling the LSU Improved Celeste.

One of my Improved Celeste trees did not match the leaves of the photos of the leaves of the O'Rourke cultivar depicted in LSU's official release publication. I personally tracked this discrepancy down by visiting lots of orchards, private collections, and talked with the figs experts in South Louisiana. Like I've stated, there are at least three varieties of LSU Improved Celeste in the current retail trade. Only one of them is the official O'Rourke. One is a yellow fig and the third is an EXCELLENT everbearing fig that is now replacing the old time regular Celeste in commercial orchards. Check on the leaf pattern to differentiate between the two.

I do not have an O'Rourke from Dalton and I haven't visited with him since I confirmed the different leaf patterns in retail trade. When I visit with him in the spring I will check the leaf pattern on his trees. FYI....Dalton generates his own cuttings. JR mostly gets them from different sources.
---------------------------------------------
Here's some more LSU fig confusion:

The Champagne cultivar was originally tested as LSU Golden Celeste. There are at least three sibling Golden Celeste figs in the retail trade. One has pink pulp and one has amber pulp. And there is another different one at UC Davis. They definitely are NOT THE SAME fig. The amber pulped strain belongs in the "supersweet" category of figs. This one can be too sweet for the taste level of some people. My grandson loves it. All of its figs heavily drip clear honey that solidifies at the eye and it is a heavy producer. It is an ugly fig when ripe as it devlops lots of sugar spots. It is the second sweetest fig in my collection.

Dan
paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Dan, at this stage of R&D would you have any info on these figs in terms of
: taste
: flavor
: productivity/whether tendency to drop many
: Split resistance to rain

Would you say they are all good inspite of the 3 differing strains ? Thanks.
Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Paully,

You can read about the taste and performance of many of the figs that I am studying in this link. It is a rather long and rambling thread; but, it contains some really good information that you will not find anywhere else.

   http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fig/msg0621220325558.html

FYI.....I will post another similar thread for the 2011 fig season.

Dan
paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Thanks Dan. Good timing I have this wet indoor weather to thank. Otherwise I would not be as focus to digest this volume of yummmie info on O'Rourke, Improved Celeste & Golden Celeste. Summary of all the info from these are:

a. These are all top notch LSU varieties
b. Many varied strains of them differing on leaf lobes and pulp colour

Dan, do you have any info on LSU Tiger ?
Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Paully,

Yes, many of the LSU figs are excellent because they were bred from two very good tasting and rain tolerant cultivars.......regular Celeste & Hunt.  I have been on a mission to find the "lost" LSU figs and to study them. I believe I have found a Golden Hunt fig........time will tell.

As you probably know......LSU Tiger was tested as Giant Celeste. It is yet another sibling to a regular Celeste mother fig. I have studied one called Giant Celeste. It did produce a couple of large Celeste looking fig for me the first year I planted it. However, my tree is not very cold tolerant and it gets winter killed to the ground each year. I have two others that are very sensitive to the cold and so far they are the least cold tolerant in my collection.

I have personally seen LSU Tiger figs in a private collection that did not look like the figs on my Giant Celeste. The Tiger figs that I saw in the collection had evenly spaced 1/16 inch wide black stripes completely around the fig. All of the figs had this beautiful vertical striping. I did not have a camera with me at the time. Last season I went back to visit that striped Tiger fig tree to get pictures and NONE of the figs had that vertical black striping that they had the previous year. The figs looked pretty much like ones I had seen on my Giant Celeste tree........go figure.

I have since obtained a Tiger fig tree directly from the LSU test orchards so  I  will be able to make comparisons between it and the Giant Celeste that I have.  I will again go back to the striped Tiger fig tree in that collection and again try to take pictures of it should the figs again appear with those vivid stripes. You will not believe your eyes if I am able to get pictures of what I saw.

Dan
noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Thanks, Dennis.  :)

Dan,  I know you have the Golden Celeste with the amber pulp and tight eye.  Is that one the true Champagne, or is Champagne yet another one?  I'm sorry that I get so turned around with the names of the figs, but yeesh, it's hard to keep it straight in this old head.

I have the Golden Celeste with the pink pulp.  I got that one from JR.  There was another one for sale on eBay and it had amber pulp and when I asked the Seller, he said it has the more open eye and I thought that was very honest of him.  I told him why I didn't want the more open eye and he understood.  Kudos to him.

I have just a regular Improved Celeste that I got in town.  Doesn't make me no neverminds because it's delicious.  I'm going to go to Dr. Mayer's and see if they have any babies of their Improved Celestes next week and I might buy one of those because those figs were really delicious, but those trees are older.  Might be the same as mine. 

I will have a fig forest for awhile until deciding what an what not to keep.

Round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows...

noss
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Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Here ya go Noss.  I've attached the publication when LSU "officially" released their new figs. Get ready for some more confusion......

Champagne has tan to amber pulp too and does not look at all like my Golden Celeste. The figs on my Golden Celeste tree are round in shape and not elongated as in the release document pictures. My in ground Champagne which does not come from LSU, JR, Dalton, or any retail nursery (it comes from a private collection in South Louisiana)........has pink pulp too.

Like I've stated, I have obtained an "officially released" Champagne fig tree directly from the LSU test orchards.  I will be able to make comparisons to those other siblings that are in retail trade.  Keep in mind what I posted earlier in this thread......many people "BELIEVED" that they already had the three officially released LSU figs in their inventory and they just changed the name of what they already had to the "new" LSU names. That was a bad decision on their part and will add to more fig confusion for years to come. I'm trying to straighten out some of the mess and keep running up against knuckleheads who insist "their" name change was justified. It would have been MUCH better for all parties concerned if LSU had not mentioned the "former names" under which their new released figs had been tested. LSU personnel were completely unaware of just how many Dr. O'Rourke "selections" from his breeding program had made it into the hands of outside fig lovers.

Give me a couple more years and I will have it all straitened out.......yeah right.
Aaaaaeeeeeeeeeh!!

Dan 

 
Attached Files
pdf New_LSU_Figs.pdf (202.46 KB, 61 views)
noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks, Pal...  Just what I needed!  ;)

Back to square 1--I want fig trees that do well in this climate, in the rain/humidity, high heat/dry spells and taste good.

Dan, I'm still very interested in your trials and appreciate all your information you share with us, so thank you very much.

I think I'll always like the figs with the "figgy" flavor the best.  Even that wonderful Atreano that Herman gave me to try had a fig taste to it that was magnified in with the rest of the flavors of that fig.

Who could possible describe a "figgy" taste?  I wonder if everyone can taste that flavor.  Guess we'd have to have a fig tasting session with us all there with the same figs and that's not likely, but wouldn't it be grand?  aaaaaaaaaaEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH!!!  Mais, da's a good taste, yeah!  ;)

noss
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recomer20

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
*bump*

Did anyone ever get a verdict on this? Is the JF&E "LSU Scotts Black" the same as Petals from the Past's "LSU Black"?

 I see PftP still has some in stock and I was telling a neighbor they should try this one (Scott's), although I've never tried it myself. Seems like everyone thinks it's a great tree to have and maybe a better fruit than the Purple. 
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Rick C. Birmingham, AL z7b --- *INGROUND: S.C.Lemon ("Dr.Welch"), LSUpurple, Celeste (Std) *POTTED 3rd Yr: Alma, Atreano, BattGreen, GrnGreek, HardyChicago, ItalianBlack (Becnel), LSUGold?, MBvs, Sal's EL, Southern BT?, St.Jean, Jackie'sUnk *POTTED 2nd Yr: SunbirdUnkJP, BourjNoire, JHAdriatic, ValleNegra *ROOTING: RdB, ScottsBlk, BlkGreek-MN,Preto
AL_Blake

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
I much prefer a Scott's Black or PFTP LSU Black fig to an LSU Purple. The SB /LSU Black is complex with many flavors while the purple is just ok so far. Of course, my purple is only in its 3rd year so I'm giving it to at least 5 years where it's suppose to obtain better flavor.
As far as the subject of this, I have one from both places and I think they are the same.
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Blake ZONE 8A AL

Wish list--Want to buy-- Native Black (Becnel farm), Figo Preto, LSU (Red, St. Gabriel Black, Scott's Yellow, Late Black, #156, #5), CDD B/G/N, Excel, Texas BA-1, RDB, Nero 600m, Sal's Corleone (Belleclare Nursery variety); Cajun Gold
recomer20

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks for the response, Blake. 
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Rick C. Birmingham, AL z7b --- *INGROUND: S.C.Lemon ("Dr.Welch"), LSUpurple, Celeste (Std) *POTTED 3rd Yr: Alma, Atreano, BattGreen, GrnGreek, HardyChicago, ItalianBlack (Becnel), LSUGold?, MBvs, Sal's EL, Southern BT?, St.Jean, Jackie'sUnk *POTTED 2nd Yr: SunbirdUnkJP, BourjNoire, JHAdriatic, ValleNegra *ROOTING: RdB, ScottsBlk, BlkGreek-MN,Preto
COGardener

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
I just got an LSU black from Petals from the past and I am hardening off a cutting from a very generous member that was lacked Scott's black. 

I now am very curious to see if they are the same, simular, different or through the chain of custody have been mislabeled. 
COGardener

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Bump

I've been hoping someone would chime in with an answer here.
dkirtexas

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Scott, I do believe there is a LSU Scott's Black and A LSU Black.  I would ask CAJUNB (Brian) to be sure.
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Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
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Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Thank you Danny
recomer20

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Scott, I just sent Jason @ PftP an email to see what he might be able to tell us. I'll share what I learn.

BTW if you're in the area, Saturday (June 13) is Blackberry day at Petals. Also, July 25th is the annual Fig Day with Doc Powell.
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Rick C. Birmingham, AL z7b --- *INGROUND: S.C.Lemon ("Dr.Welch"), LSUpurple, Celeste (Std) *POTTED 3rd Yr: Alma, Atreano, BattGreen, GrnGreek, HardyChicago, ItalianBlack (Becnel), LSUGold?, MBvs, Sal's EL, Southern BT?, St.Jean, Jackie'sUnk *POTTED 2nd Yr: SunbirdUnkJP, BourjNoire, JHAdriatic, ValleNegra *ROOTING: RdB, ScottsBlk, BlkGreek-MN,Preto
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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Rick,

That would be a great time.... but I live in Colorado. I hope to be in the area later this year, we shall see how things work out. 

Like I  said I have an LSU black that I ordered from ptfp and a cutting I  rooted from a generous member that was labeled Scott's black.  I hope they are different, if so great, if not fine..... 

Thank you for the response, I look forward to jason's answer. 
recomer20

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Scott,  Got a quick response from Jason re: "LSU Black @ PftP"

"I am not sure if it is the same as Scott's Black. Our original plant came from Dr. Himmelrick at LSU. It is darker on the outside and lighter on the inside than LSU purple."


EDIT: If this is Scott's Black (link below), seems must be different - JFE's "Scott's Black" has dark center:

http://www.figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/lsu-scotts-black-2011-2012-5330984?highlight=lsu+scotts+black&pid=1274321493#post1274321493
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Rick C. Birmingham, AL z7b --- *INGROUND: S.C.Lemon ("Dr.Welch"), LSUpurple, Celeste (Std) *POTTED 3rd Yr: Alma, Atreano, BattGreen, GrnGreek, HardyChicago, ItalianBlack (Becnel), LSUGold?, MBvs, Sal's EL, Southern BT?, St.Jean, Jackie'sUnk *POTTED 2nd Yr: SunbirdUnkJP, BourjNoire, JHAdriatic, ValleNegra *ROOTING: RdB, ScottsBlk, BlkGreek-MN,Preto
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Thank Rick.

I will be gladly growing them both out to see what I have. 

Thank you for your help. 
DesertDance

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
First year with LSU Scott's Black.  Nothing to compare.  Nice thread.

Suzi
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Quackmaster

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkirtexas
Scott, I do believe there is a LSU Scott's Black and A LSU Black.  I would ask CAJUNB (Brian) to be sure.

I've had my Scotts black for a couple years now which I got from brian (cajunb), then last year I got a Lsu black from him. The Scotts black is the real deal with a red inerior, and the Lsu black has figs on it and even though I haven't seen a ripe one yet they look way different.
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Very interesting.  Well, I guess I'll start to get a better idea what I have in a couple years.  Thank you all!
brianm

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
If you can find the thread, Marius describes LSU black he received. It had a golden interior. He stll has plant lable too.
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Egghead

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by recomer20
Scott,  Got a quick response from Jason re: "LSU Black @ PftP"


Thanks, Rick! I bought one of these as well -- also Poppa John and their version of O'Rourke. At those prices, who could resist?

We'll all be checking them out as they grow!
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Lebanon, TN 6b/7a
Figs (currently all babies): Atreano, Battaglia Green, Black Bethlehem, Desert King (Wellspring), Ischia Green (Wellspring), Janice, Kathleen's Black, Lattarula/Italian Honey (Wellspring), Letizia/Florea? (Wayside), LSU Black (PFTP), LSU Gold, LSU Purple, Lyndhurst White, Magnolia/Brunswick (Wellspring), Marseilles Black VS, Nero 600M, "North China"/Magnolia?, O'Rourke (PFTP), Olympian (Wellspring), Osborn, Panache (yay!), Peter's Honey, Petite Black Dwarf/Petite Negri? (Wellspring), Poppa John (PFTP), Red Lebanese (cuttings), Red Sicilian, Sal's (EL), Ronde de Bordeaux, Sicilian Black (Robin), Stella, Violette de Bordeaux (Wellspring)
wishlist: Florea, Hollier, LaRadek English Brown Turkey, Rockaway Green, Smith, Vasilika Sika, Weeping Black, any Rimada -- and Jolly Tiger someday!
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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
I picked up 6 from pftp including the Pappa John.
CAJUNB

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
I have both fig trees growing next to each other and both are load with figs,so I will post the results and pics as soon as they are ripe  .............in a few weeks
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Excellent Brian, thank you, I'm looking forward to that report. 
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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Thanks Brian
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dfoster25

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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Bump

I have an LSU black that I got from another member. Produces sparce and late.

Just got the Scott's black from the Driveway farmer. I hope they are different.
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dkirtexas

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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
One thing for sure...the LSU Scott's Black has a RED inside!

Anything without the Red is not true to type, and may be a Black, a Late Black, A St Gabriel, or a Native Black, or an Italian Black.  The Native Black and the Italian Black are from Becnel and could be the same fig, I don't know.

The Scott's Black is a great performer in production, rooting, and growth.  It is also a very good tasting fig.
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Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
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Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
CAJUNB

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Danny,the LSU Scott's black has the red interior  and the LSU Black has a caramel color interior.........also the Late Black is the same as the LSU Thibodaux fig,and the St. Gabriel Black is another entire different fig.I have both Native Black and the Italian Black from Becnel's the leaf shape is very similar but the figs have different shapes and taste.
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brianm

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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
Does anyone have a picture of LSU black fig?
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dkirtexas

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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
Brian - Great input.  As I said, Yes on the RED.

The whole LSU "Black" thing is a mess.  I have the Scott's Black, the Thibodaux and am kinda satisfied with my "Black Fig" section as I have the Native Black, Mission, and VDB as well.  If I were to add another LSU "Black Fig" ti would be the St Gabriel but really it would be only to "Check the box".

I do not have the Italian Black but I know they are different from the Native.  Somewhere I have read that a Becnel Plantation shipping list from the 1700/1800 era had a fig listed as "Black Fig from France".  I would assume that that was the original Native Black.  Not sure enough to argue, but I don't argue anyway, LOL
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Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
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Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
wellingtonbill

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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
Long time, never posted NC7b member, I have LSU Scotts Black, Black, Late Black, and Saint Gabriel among other LSUs.  Saint Gabriel fruited for me this past summer - two figs on second season tree.  The Saint Gabriel that I have bore a medium plus size brown fig - not black.  My Late Black has not fruited nor Thibodeaux.  Help my confusion here is Saint Gabriel a dark purple/black fig or brown?  Sometimes figs show up from foster homes rather than from their biological parents.
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Bill Snotherly
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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wellingtonbill
Long time, never posted NC7b member, I have LSU Scotts Black, Black, Late Black, and Saint Gabriel among other LSUs.  Saint Gabriel fruited for me this past summer - two figs on second season tree.  The Saint Gabriel that I have bore a medium plus size brown fig - not black.  My Late Black has not fruited nor Thibodeaux.  Help my confusion here is Saint Gabriel a dark purple/black fig or brown?  Sometimes figs show up from foster homes rather than from their biological parents.


Hey Bill,

I see you are still thinking about the LSU black vs Scotts black,you and me are going to get to the bottom of this :). Glad to see you post! 
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snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #44 
For what it's worth, here is my two cents. Over the past 10+ years, I've purchased lots of fig trees from JFE. For someone who drive from Charlotte to Jamieson, Alabama to purchase fig trees from PFTP, and purchased every fig tree they carry and held long discussions with them about whether their LSU Black and the now known Scott's Black......I believe these 2 figs are the same. Yes, I have them both.

Why? I think this fig was always called LSU Black. According to PFTP, this fig came to them as "LSU Black". Somewhere years ago, some nursery changed the name or renamed this fig. This is how figs get multiple names across the country.

Thanks,

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Dennis
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snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
For what it's worth, here is my two cents. Over the past 10+ years, I've purchased lots of fig trees from JFE. For someone who drove from Charlotte to Jamieson, Alabama to purchase fig trees from PFTP, and purchased every fig tree they carry and held long discussions with them about whether their LSU Black and the now known Scott's Black are the same.......I believe these 2 figs are the same. Yes, I have them both.

Why? I think this fig was always called LSU Black. According to PFTP, this fig came to them as "LSU Black". Somewhere years ago, some nursery changed the name or renamed this fig. This is how figs get multiple names across the country.

Thanks,
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Dennis
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dkirtexas

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Posted Reply with quote  #46 
 The LSU Scott's Black and the LSU Black are NOT the same fig.

I don't care who said what to whom, there is no Nursery anywhere that has the knowledge that Dr. Johnson (LSU Professor, most associated/knowledgeable expert) has and I heard Dr. Johnson talk about this at two separate LSU Fig Field Days.  Brian (CAJUNB) is absolutely correct in his description above.

Some nursery guy/person, somewhere, talking about something they know nothing about is how a lot of plants/trees get mis-labeled/named.  This is further screwed up by nurserys mislabeling and distributing their mistakes and fig enthusiasts taking the label as gospel and perpetuating the errors.
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Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
Waskom Tx Zone 7B/8

Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #47 
Thanks Danny. Appreciate your response!

Cheers!
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Dennis
Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a 
snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #48 
Before I order a couple of plant test from BioTech, I plan on calling John Prece at UC-Davis and see if they can recommend a preferred lab for Plant DNA testing. There are 3 groups I am interested in testing:

1. LSU Scott's Black from JFE and LSU Black from PFTP
2. Latturula and Marseilles
3. Strawberry and Verte

Cheers,

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Dennis
Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a 
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #49 
Dennis,

Let us know about the Scott's Black results.
Mine is a super fig, one of the most vigorous and tasty, very productive too.
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wish list: Violeta, Calderona. USDA z 10a, SoCal
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