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Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > I finally figured it Why figs with FMV,from Ca Collection,don't want to grow on East Coast.
 
 


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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
Hi Fellows :
I have been thinking for years why ,cultivars,from Ca Collection,do not want to grow here,but grow just fine in California.
First it is because,they have FM virus,but this is one problem and not the only one!.
The other problem is the kind of soil we have here on the east coast(acidic).
In California the soil is alkaline.
In fact the 2 different kind of soil separates,at the Rocky Mountain north, south , range.
Fig trees love Neutral to alkaline soil.
Even if they have Fig mosaic virus,they grow just fine in California because the soil composition is ideal for fig trees,+ they have mild winters,so they do not need to spend a lot of energy fighting cold.
Now when a fig tree,with fig mosaic virus,is given a sudden,heavy fertilization,as John Verdick Recommends, -two totally different scenarios results,on the west,and east coast!.
On the west coast,after heavy fertilization,the tree jumps out and start growing stronger,because the heavy fertilization, changed the soil from Alkaline to Neutral,which is the perfect soil for fig trees.
On the east coast,a sudden heavy fertilization, Changes the soil from slightly acidic to very acidic,the tree can't feed itself and usually collapses and dies totally.

So My conclusion: On the east coast heavy fertilization,on the Fig mosaic virus-ed, trees, should not be done, and will not help the tree,to start growing.
What is to be done?--
:A lot of limestone powder,should be mixed,in around the roots,or in the pot,(for potted trees),and worked into soil,in the Hope to transform the acidic soil into neutral.
Once the soil is neutral,the plant will be able to feed itself much better and will start growing.
There are usually a lot of nutrients in the soil,but when the soil is acidic the fig tree can't extract those nutrients easy.
It also has a harder time feeding itself due to Fig mosaic virus.
Happy Gardening
go4broek

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Interesting theory, Herman. Here is a good source for information on pH and fertilizer relationships for everyone: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/components/1731-complete.pdf Enjoy!
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tmc2009

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 

Years ago I was watching an episode of This Old House and there was a side story about a local guy selling fig trees.  I think they were in New York or Conneticut. Anyway it caught my attention and they were all in barrels and there was a thick layer of lime dressing on top of each barrel.  I mean that eash barrel was solid white on top from all the lime.  I've never caught a repeat of that episode since, but I clearly remember it.  Its funny, before there was climate change in the late 70's and 80's all you would hear was stories about acid rain here in the Northeast and all the lakes dying.  Now I never hear any mention of acid rain.  I guess it fell out of favor.
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GeorgiaFig

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Herman.  A brilliant theory my friend, and this makes perfect sense.

Although it would be ideal to mix in the lime, for figs that are already in ground, what do you think of a top dressing of lime?

I greatly appreciate your sharing this.  It will be very helpful.

Very best wishes.

John
JD

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Herman,

I appreciate the theory as well. I am definitely interested in an application: what type and how much limestone? I would love to read your thoughts on this.

JD
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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
I see no problem ,if dressing the tree with top limestone powder,only that,if left in top,a windy day will blow the limestone powder away.
Usually if left in top the limestone powder.will be transported deep in the ground by rain,in time,little by little.
Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Pay attention guys..........

Herman2 is talking about "limestone powder" and not about "lime". Those are two entirely different compounds. One is very alkaline (lime) and the other (limestone) is not.......

Herman2, very interesting observation.

Dan
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hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Herman, where you are at in NJ there are "acid forming soils" Info here. Incidentally, you may have a good chance of finding fossils in nearby streams because the soils in your area were deposited around 70 million years ago during the cretaceous period. There are soils on the east coast that do not need any amendment, some limestone soils in NJ are probably just fine.

I mixed a small amount of dolomitic lime in at planting, but I think I will add some more to my UCD varieties that are not doing anything either after several years in ground. Pending a ph test of course. I suspect you are onto something, figs from different areas could be adapted to different ph levels because of regional soil changes, limestone, volcanic, metamorphic, etc. Italy has many very different soil regions, I do not know much about that though...
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Aw geez, guys--Now I'm confused again---

WHICH kind of lime is the kind we want to use??!!??  I've got Deco Lime, which is lawn lime and it says extended release and looks like a white powder, but it's heavy and doesn't tend to drift in the wind.  It waters right into the mulch, or soil.

When I'm spreading it, it's cool to the touch and falls to the soil rapidly instead of drifting in a breeze.  The feed store sold it to me.

Dan, do we want very alkaline, or not?

noss
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Herman,

Maybe that is why Belleclare used 1/2" to 1" of granular limestone on top of (potted) soil (I saw it with my own eyes).
That is a lot of lime!
Maybe I'll start easy by adding (say) 1 cupful of lime to each pot?
Some of their figs did have FMV too.

See link below:

go4broek,

That link you provided is very informative.
Note that there are more than one kind of limestone:
Limestone consists either of calcium carbonate (calcitic 
limestone) or calcium/magnesium carbonate (dolomitic limestone) - preferred by me [b/c of the Mg element, also used by plants].

Also observe figure 2 closely, and note that certain nutrients are not absorbed/used
as much at pH levels (say) below 6 or above 7 (bands gets narrower).

Here is your link (again):
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TucsonKen

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Since much of my yard has caliche (a concrete-like layer of sand and rocks bonded together with calcium carbonate) anywhere from a few inches to several feet below the surface, I assume I don't need to add any limestone products. I've not found caliche under my fig plantings, and I've never had my soil tested, but I believe all of the soil in my area is already fairly alkaline.
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nypd5229

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 

From what I have heard- Bill ( Bill's Figs- NJ) uses quite a bit for his self watering container(pounds measure). His success is well documented here and other places.
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Dominick
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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
JD:What type of limestone:Calcitic or dolomitic.
Agricultural limestone,(not lime used in construction to make Mortar).
Also powdered,will act the fastest in the soil,followed by pelletized,and granulated,wich act slower.
Also dolomitic limestone,have higher concentration of magnesium,and is proffered by many.
Personally I could not find dolomitic limestone in my neighborhood and I used calcitic,a regular brand here is called "Lawn Doctor".
AS FOR HOW MUCH,:I sugest the amount prescribed in the instructions that comes written on the bag,when you are dealing with heavy infected FMV trees.
On healthy figs I used much less,because healthy trees can live in slightly acidic soil just fine.

Brent:Thanks for posting the study:Yes NJ has acid forming soils,now I see proof too.
71GTO

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Im glad you mentioned a brand Herman. I have been kind of stressing about what lime to use. I ended up buying the lawn doctor brand granular lime stone at home depot. They had pulvarized as well. I was able to find pelatized dolomitic lime at a nursery, but it seemed a little pricey for a small bag.
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Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Noss,

Lime is what is chemically known as Calcium oxide.....it has a high pH level and it can drastically change the pH of your soil if not used properly.  They make "lime" by heating Calcium carbonate (i.e. "lime stone") to a high temperature. Lime stone is mostly Calcium carbonate and depending upon the source (sea beds) from which it was mined.....it can also contain some small amounts of Magnesium carbonate. When lime stone contains some magnesium it is classified as Dolomite limestone.

Limestone powder is nothing more than ground up limestone. It does not have a high pH like lime does. However, it will slowly and safely bring down the pH of an acid soil over time.

Oyster shells, clam shells, chicken egg shell are all mostly Calcium Carbonate too.  These will act just like limestone over time......since they are chemically nearly the same. Oyster and clam shells will have traces of Magnesium carbonate because they came from the sea......so they are more like dolomite limestone.

FYI, there is evidence that "LIME STONE" products will keep nematodes (aka RKN)  in check. That is why some nurseries use a lime stone dressing (not lime) on the top of their potted plants. Also, it acts as a mulch and as stated ealier will mellow the pH of an acid soil mix over time.

.......if still confused ask again.


Dan
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71GTO

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
http://figs4fun.com/fpix/FP866-29%20800.jpg

This is what i bought its soil doctor, not lawn doctor. Dan i have to say i might be confused again. I just sprinkled a few spade fulls around the larger trees and less on the small and potted trees. A lot has soaked into the ground already. The person i bought my larger trees from last year recommended putting half that size bag on each tree and his trees seemed to be doing great.
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Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
That is dolomite limestone........i.e. the right stuff to be using. That pictured product will not harm your tree.  Even if your soil does not need it.....it WILL NOT harm your tree. There is a product called "lime" that comes in those size bags too......and that stuff CAN harm your trees. If it says limestone (either crushed, pelletized, powder, etc.) on the bag.....you are good to go. If it is ground up oyster shells or clam shells, or the grit that they feed to chickens to harden their egg shells.........you are good to go too.



Dan
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71GTO

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
The bag says calestic? Thats not the calciun limestone?
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71GTO

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
So just a few shovel fulls around the tree is plenty?
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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
So just a few shovel fulls around the tree is plenty?
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Dan_la

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
I would follow the directions on the bag. Too much will not harm your tree. Too little may delay the benefits. The chemical composition of that bagged material is predominately calcium carbonate with some magnesium carbonate too as the bag states this material provides both calcium and magnesium. That means that particular limestone used to produce that bagged product was mined from an area where the sea once stood many years ago.

In my area we don't need to add limestone to our soil. Some will still add some crushed limestone or oyster/clam  shells to help keep the nematodes at bay. If I lived in Florida where they have very sandy soils that are very prone to nematodes, you can bet that I would be using cruhed limestone on my in ground trees for that very reason.

Dan
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JD

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
@ Herman. I have both dolomitic limestone (powered and white) and calcitic limestone (granular and brown). I will likely add a combination of both; powdered directly into the new soil when I pot up and granular as a top dressing for all. I need to think about how much.
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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Well It is up to you how much you want to use,it seems that according to Dan,this type of limestone products will not Harm you tree.
I personally used about 8 cups for every inground tree,and 4 cups for my Desert King potted tree,but in your case you are the Boss,for how much you want to use.
JD

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Thanks for sharing what you do personally; that is what I was after. To recap, you use 8 cups for your in ground trees and 4 for your potted DK of powered calcitic limestone that you mix into the soil.

Also, a personal mantra from my youth that is a testament of my adult life: if it is to be, then it's up to me.
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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
JD:If I had Dolomitic limestone powde,granulated.or peletized I would have used that instead of calcitic,but I did not find in store this year.
Both work well,yet dolomitic has more magnesium.
noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 

Dan,  The bag I have says it's limestone and dolomitic limestone and warns that it contains silica and not to inhale the dust.


Herman, I'm glad you started this thread.

noss
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nypd5229

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Here are pics of what I use- Dolomite Pelleted Lime(stone)-Also included are chemical analysis of calcium and magnesium concentrates.

1st bag



Analysis



2nd type



Analysis



Different Companies but essential the same-some advertise straight away that its pelletized and dolomite. Others advertise as being lime than you have to search for the terms dolomite and pellets.

This is an in-between type where as it does not act quickly but does have to be reapplied yearly if not later in the season if it leaches away from fast draining soil.
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