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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I noticed, today, that the pots my figs are in are translucent, not really solid.  The sunlight can be seen through them.

The white pots are even more translucent.

Will that hurt the roots even more in this heat if the sunlight can get through the plastic?  This is upsetting.

Thanks,

noss
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TucsonKen

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Noss, I use translucent plastic milk jugs as one-gallon pots for my young figs. Although I didn't notice any real detriment to the figs, a lot of what I assume is algae grows between the soil and the plastic because of the light that gets through. I think heat build-up can be a problem as well. During their first year in the jugs, I didn't do much to shade the root zone except put the jugs inside plastic ice-cream tubs, which, although they created a double layer, were still translucent. The figs seemed to do fine, but this year I've bunched the pots close together and piled mulch around any exposed parts to reduce light/heat. Of course, I do the same thing with black pots as well--they all seem to get pretty hot.
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james

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Root development stops when the temps in the root zone hit about 85F.  Also the trees ability to take nutrients is hampered at high temperatures. 

The translucent container will trap more solar heat than an white plastic container which will trap more solar heat than a black container which will trap more solar heat than an opaque container with a reflective (including white) surface.  I did an experiment about 4 years ago to verify this (at the time it seemed counter intuitive to me that the white would retain more heat than the black).  The amount of light coming through the white plastic vs. the amount that was reflected away still caused less root growth than in the solid black containers.  One other thing I found while repotting my trees that year, most of trees had heavy new root growth in the NW quadrant (the part being most shaded) of the container and much less in the rest.

I should also note that I did not actually measure the temperatures in the root zone.  I was strictly looking at root growth.

~james
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2016 Wish List:  Dārk Pōrtuguese, Grānthāms Royāl, Lātarolla, Negrettā, Nōire de Bārbentāne, Rockāway Green, Viōlet Sepōr, Viōlette Dāuphine.  Iranian figs are always welcome.
will

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 

Ken is correct I noticed all the cuttings I started in clear plastic cups all have a green algae type growth inside the soil. I also noticed that if I cover up the outside of the cups with tin foil the roots seem to grow much faster when light can't penetrate through.
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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
about 10 yrs ago, i used to work with hardware (computer). one of the customer called and said she has virus. then she goes.. "it's really a virus, it can't be an alien. i wrapped by computer with tin foil so the aliens can't get in"..

pete

Quote:
Originally Posted by will

Ken is correct I noticed all the cuttings I started in clear plastic cups all have a green algae type growth inside the soil. I also noticed that if I cover up the outside of the cups with tin foil the roots seem to grow much faster when light can't penetrate through.
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***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
You could always paint them, or coat them with a vinyl roof coating.

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TucsonKen

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
I can't speak for Noss, but my motivation for using translucent milk jugs (and 2 liter soda bottles) is strictly economic--they don't cost me anything. Plus, I always have some on hand, I like the handles (on the jugs), it's easy to melt lots of drainage/aeration holes in them, and I can just throw them away when I'm done.

When I think the root zone is getting too much light I just stick my salvaged "pots" inside anything else I have on hand that's free and will block enough sun to keep the roots cool--usually a combo of cardboard & mulch. Applying some kind of paint or opaque coating would certainly work great to block the light--but it would also add cost, defeating my purpose, and I'd probably still want to cover it with cardboard or something to intercept the sun's heat before it has a chance to even reach the paint.

The algae layer may cause some harm, but I can't really see what it might be. There seems to be adequate root growth as well, even in summer (since they're covered), so I'll probably keep using the same scavenged supplies as long as it keeps working for me.
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Ken
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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
I think you can still recycle them after you are done with them Ken.
I put one cutting in a coffee canister with a foil liner to see how it does, so far so good.
Algae accumulates gradually and can eventually become such a thick layer that bacteria will heat up the area as they consume it. I am sure that large amounts of nitrogen and other salts are suddenly released as well during the rotting. Just don't leave them in the container too long, it takes months usually for there to be enough algae for it to choke itself out and rot.
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
This is very interesting.  Thanks everyone for your input.

I'm still thinking that the best thing to do would be to put up some kind of barrier between the sun and the pots like an opaque fencing.

I can't take the heat very well, but can stand much higher temps if I'm under shade rather than in the direct sun.  I know that cloud cover still lets the sun's rays get through, but it does seem cooler if it's cloudy.  Also, if it's cloudy, the A/C unit doesn't work as hard as when it's sunny.

Hmmmmm.....  I don't mind the thought of painting pots to block the light, but if a barrier would be the best thing to do, then I need to go with that.  I didn't realize that the light-colored pots were so translucent and thought they would reflect the sun's rays, but when I saw how translucent they were, I figured that they wouldn't reflect the sun.

This thread is a real keeper and y'all do some heavy thinking.  Thanks so much for all the great input and so quickly, too.

noss
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satellitehead

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
I think there is some potentially bad info here.

You want to avoid sunlight contacting your roots.  This has been discussed in great details over the years.  It's obviously less impactful if the pot is translucent rather than clear, but best is no light.
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Jason
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 

Hi Jason,

I think so, as well.  Roots are used to being in the soil which is opaque, so it stands to reason that the best pots would be opaque.  Also, I am thinking that if I put an opaque barrier to shade the pots then that might be the next best thing to burying the pots, which I can't do.


Thanks,

noss
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noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.
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Posted Reply with quote  #12 

Tapla spelled out the science behind it at GW some time back, but it's come up a few times.  UV will burn roots like it burns our skin.  Bad things grow in soil which is inside translucent pots which could hurt roots.  There were other reasons, but they don't come to mind at the moment.
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Jason
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go4broek

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Noss,
Here is what I came up with after noting that many of my young cuttings showed signs of wilting even though they were moist. Took the root zone temp in one of the 1/2-gal pots when the air temp was 98F and it was 123F! Now with the shade, the smaller pots stay at or below air temp and the 5-gal only get to about 92.

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Ruben
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satellitehead

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
I had similar results with the temp drops, Rafed. 

I started with a tarp strung up between four iron posts with wire.

I'm using Lattice squares strung up with wire now, but without a center post and support for at least 60% of the width as you have, I experienced too much droop (I will take photos later and drop them in my shade thread).  To boot, every time it rains, the lattice warps more and more, it's a bad situation, I need something less prone to bending.

I am looking at dropping $25 on a cheapo 5'x30' roll of camoflauge netting - the stuff that you use for hunting blinds, this stuff:  http://goo.gl/3Pk89

I think it would be more conducive to non-permanent or compact installations like what I'm using - You could drive in four posts in a run, string wires parallel to the posts with a cross in the middle like |X| and lay the netting over it.

Most of the stuff is UV resistant and porous so rain can make it through.
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Jason
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
When I said I noticed my pots were translucent, I didn't mean like milk jugs.  These are flower pots I got at HD and they come in a light beige/white, green and terra cotta.  The sun was hitting the pots just right to where I could see the light coming through the sides of the pots and I couldn't believe what I was seeing.  I thought the colored pots were opaque and would keep the sunlight out like the black pots do. 

I'd rather keep the trees in the ground, but don't have the room to do that.  I need to do something like Ruben has and get some shade to the pots.

Thanks for posting the photos Ruben.

noss
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satellitehead

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
I am a huge fan of the green pots from Monrovia nursery. I do my best to get my hands on them when possible. The sun doesn't penetrate, they are incredibly rigid, they don't heat up much at all, and they look like they will last a good 8-10 years of service. I am going to try and hunt down the manufacturer of them. Someone has to be pouring them somewhere, and the price has to be cheaper than what the stores charge for their flimsy pots.
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Jason
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Unfortunately, I don't have a source of those pots here.  What do you think makes them so good, Jason?  How is it they don't heat up as much?  Please do let us know if you find a source for those pots.

Thanks,

noss
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noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.
satellitehead

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 

They are lighter green in color and not as absorbative with heat (is that a word?) - they are very thick-walled plastic as well, easily 20x thicker than nursery pots - the drain holes are large and square in the corners - they have gussets at the pronounced lip so the pot will never tear and can handle a load and it's easy to grip - just generally an all-around good pot.

If you've never seen them, here are some pictures:

http://www.google.com/search?q=monrovia%20green%20pot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1366&bih=615

EDIT:

I found a breakout of all their pot model#'s and volumes but haven't managed to dig deep enough to figure out who blows them.  No way they could possibly be manufacturing on-site.  Here is that chart of model numbers:
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Jason
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
I wouldn't mind being able to get some of those pots, too.

I found some flexible white plastic lattice at HD.  I found some rolls of metallic plastic insulation.  I think I'll try to set something up with the reflective insulation behind it and see how that does.  I can get some plastic lattice with smaller openings in it and cut the panel in half.  The flexible lattice will follow the curve of the edging along the front of our house.

I would still like to be able to get the Monrovia pots without having to buy something in them, that is.  No room!

:)  noss
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noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.
drivewayfarmer

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
I think the Monrovia pots come from http://www.nurserysupplies.com/
Nursery Suppies Inc.
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satellitehead

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
@Kerry, it looks like that's the case!  And HOLY CRAP did you see the second picture on this page:

http://www.nurserysupplies.com/Solutions/Pot-In-Pot

They have this pot-in-pot solution that allows you to grow in a pot in the ground!!  That's ingenious.  I would love to have a drip-irrigated pot-in-pot-in-ground system like that for my trees.
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Jason
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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Jason ,
With this system aren't you missing one of the main advantages of putting fig pots in the ground ? They can't root into the surrounding soil this way.
Maybe I misunderstand the system ?
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go4broek

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Using the P-I-P system will still allow the tree to send feeder roots into the "pocket space". The space at the bottom will still be moist/humid enough for the roots to grow outside the drain holes. I noticed that happening when I used opaque 12-oz cups which contained clear cups inside them with a peat pot inside it. The roots grew through the peat pot, the clear cup and into the water reservoir at the bottom of the opaque cup. There wasn't always water in the space/reservoir. Kind of like a mini SIP system.

EDIT: NVM, it is exactly like the mini SIP system I described. It will not come into contact with the soil, but you WILL be able to put your fertilizer directly into the pocket or it will collect from any overwater from the surface. Possible drawback is in cases of heavy rains and waterlogging. One could cut the bottom off to prevent waterlogging or drill some holes just below the bottom edge of the liner on the side of the socket (like a SIP system).
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Ruben
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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
One way to get good (specially large) pots is to visit local nurseries.
Often they will have plenty of empty pots mostly used/returned from landscaper customers.
Being not sure how to re-cycle/dispose all that plastic, they may be willing to
sell them for a very cheap price, or even give-aways for free.....   
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satellitehead

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 

I need to follow back up on this and see if I can order 40-50 ten gallon pots.
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Jason
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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
I did an experiment for my work revolving around this very topic.  You don't want to use translucent pots.  Roots do not like UV light.   I will post some photos when I can.  White is ok, but a coextruded or pressure formed pot is best.  Not white injection molded.  
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 

I'm glad you bumped it up, Jason.  Thanks.  noss
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Hello dfoster,

Will you please translate what you said about the pot material?  What is injection-molded?  Coextrusion?  Pressure-formed pots?

I got the pots I have because they were affordable for me.  I noticed, when I pulled the rootballs out of the pots recently, that there was green algae on the roots, so too much light is getting into even the darker colors. like the terra cotta color because they've made them even thinner and the light gets through them more easily.

noss
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noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.
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Posted Reply with quote  #29 

And whatever you do try to get UV stable plastic pots, typically what is used in nurseries or sold for specifically for horticulture. I know a lot of folks are using 5 gal buckets and storage tubs which are for the most part not UV stable. I would guess in about 2 years time you will see them cracking as you try to lift them, damaged by the sun. Some may be more durable, but I prefer not to risk it.    
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Does the soil inside of the pot get heated from air temperatures, sunlight striking the surface of the soil, or both?  If I wrap my black pots with aluminum foil...to reflect the sunlight...will that lower soil temps?  How much lower can soil  temps.get if air around pots is 90 degrees plus?  Evaporation is a cooling process, but it can only lower soil temps by so much.

Interesting questions.  Answers confusing.  Too much conjecture, and not enough science.

What about shade cloth that's used for greenhouses?  Shade the pots, keep only the leaves in sunlight.  Pots might stay cooler.  Just a thought.

Frank
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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Guess im in the minority of giving added heat to my fig plants sitting on rocks and a hot cement patio.
Gotta do what you gotta do i suppose in ones climate .  ; )
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Posted Reply with quote  #32 

Frank, someone on here a while back did experiments with painting their pots different colors (hope it wasn't this thread) and I swear they came back with only moderate variations in soil temps.

 

Heat in the root zone can be deadly, though.
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Jason
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noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
I've come to the conclusion that shading the pots, soil and lower trunks, down here, is the best way to go.  I will put silver insulation around my pots, but will also put some lattice work in front of them to give some shade.

I want to make a nursery for the young trees out back and have them under shadecloth like they do at the nurseries until they're older and tougher.

noss
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BronxFigs

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
Here's some questions:

Will a drip system keep soil temps from rising into the danger zone? Evaporation cools the soil/medium...correct?

Will a drip system create the dreaded Perched Water Table, or is the dripping so slow that water can never build up enough to flood the medium/soil?

I ask only because I am not familiar with, nor have I ever used a drip system.

Frank
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Here are three photos of my soil/pot trial.

Grasses and Hosta photos:
left pot : Black Blow molded nursery pot.
Middle pot:  White injection molded.
Right pot: White Coextruded.   White on outside, but with Black on inside to block UV.

The grass photo shows how the light gets through and causes algea to grow.   You may even see the pattern of the design on the pot even though I "whited" this out so that you wouldn't see the brand on the pot.

The Heuchera photo shows just the two white options to show the difference between the two.  It's very pronounced.

These are professional pots that may not be readily available so forget about asking for these pots by what I'm calling them.   Just look at them and say, Can I see light coming though them.   Moral of the story....Even white pots can be translucent and let light in.   Roots don't like it.

Check with a local nursery supplier.  They can sell you bundles or boxes of 10, 25, 50, 100 a whole lot cheaper than what you can get at a box store.  

Figs like heat.   My experiment was done in the spring before the 95 degree day that we are experiencing today.   White, wouldn't soak up any heat.

My recommendation for pot color (for growing on) would be anything from Grey, green, terra cotta.  Probably would stay away from Black or White although most importantly, you don't want light to get through. I say growing on because, in propagation you're dealing with lower light conditions and the pots are smaller and in trays that shade the roots.

Soils:

I did further experiments where we planted in different soils.   This made very little difference.  I question the mushroom compost being the best.  Because we are talking about a long term pot crop, you want a soil with good porosity that won't break down over time and settle.   Bark mixes for nursery containers I feel are best for this whether you are going with a drip system or a sub irrigated pot it doesn't really matter.  Mixes with heavy peat will break down over time and lose the porosity that is needed for proper root growth.   The mushroom compost sounds like it doesn't have good porosity if it's really hard and heavy.  I plus could be that it won't blow over in a heavy wind.  Again, soils are a little less of a concern to me.   Pick a media with good porosity which translates to good drainage and you shouldn't have a problem.   Google "Fafard 52".  I'm only stating what I know from my own nursery growing experience.

Again, check with a local nursery supplier.

Fertilizer:

Not all fertilizers are created equal.

Timed Release:  AKA Osmocote, multicote, etc....    There are a multitude of different forms of this stuff.   The price you pay is determined by:

1. Size and consistancy of the "Pearls"

2. Type of N used.   Is it Urea or Nitrate N.  Big difference in the 2.   A heavy Urea base with drive pH down, which Figs don't like.

3. Length of effectiveness:  Timed release fertilizers are just that, timed.   They come in  3 -6 month blends.   The time it takes the fertilizer to be released is diferent for each blend.   This is mostly driven by temperature.  When it's cold, no fertilizer is realeased.  So mixing this into the soil upon planting is OK, but in 3 months your done and need to fertilize by some other means. 

4. Micros?   Is it just Urea or is it a complex blend of N-P-K + minors?  Big differences.

5.  Are all the pearls the same or is there a mixture of N pearls, P pearls, K pearls.

 
I like liquid feeds.   Use one for figs that has a lot of Nitrate N.  more expensive, but these tend to have more calcium and raise pH.  One that has alot of Ammonia or Urea based feeds are cheap but lower pH.  A well balanced feed with Nitrate N will work well.   I feed constantly in June and July, then start cutting back in August and September.  From what I've read, too much feed on figs can lead to too much leaf growth and poor fig production.  

Check with a local nursery supplier.


Injection and Drip Irrigation:

http://www.dosatronusa.com/products/product-catalogue.aspx
I will share some photos of my injector system that I use when I have time, but above is a link to the best injectors out there.  I guess it depends how much you want to spend.

For the Dripper system I use:

http://www.lowes.com/Search=mister+landscaper?storeId=10151&N=0&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&rpp=24

Why not try a drip system in conjuction with a subirrigator pot?



Of course all of this changes if you're growing in the ground.

Attached Images
jpeg heuchera.jpg (84.30 KB, 12 views)
jpeg grass.jpg (126.80 KB, 13 views)
jpeg Hosta_1.JPG (167.32 KB, 15 views)


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