Register  |   | 
 
Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > In Defense of FMV Infection.
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #1 
On first joining this forum (May 2012), With Zero experience growing figs,I was surprised at FMV (FMD) infected plants being traded and propagated. I thought this contrary to good horticultural practice. As a lifelong gardener, I usually destroy inferior diseased plant cultivars.

After a few months growing fig plants, I have changed my mind, because of the following experiences.

1. I purchased several cultivars that were noted as having the virus (Mission, Petite Negri and Violette De Bordeaux/Negronne), With attention to care and nutrition, the plants were visibly healthy and productive.

2. The VDB purchased from Edible Landscaping (30 inches tall)had Very visible leaf deformation (asymmetry) and mosaic mottling (pale spots). After several weeks of observation, I realized that most of the pale spots were caused by Leaf Rust. New leaves that grew from the growing tips were not mottled and looked healthy,before they were infected (inoculated) with Rust. The plant itself was very prolific and grew over 1 foot on each of its branches and more than 30 fig embryos were pinched. The observations were similar for The Petite Negri, It grew 18 inches and has 10 figs.

VDB/Negronne...
Inline imagePetite Negri...
Inline image3. I documented a young (virus free,NYC native) plant, getting mottled leaves (noted as virus infection in several pictures on the web). I traced it to fig Leaf Rust. The young plant was placed below older Rust infected plants. The young leaves were mottled, the older leaves developed the usual brown spots. The young plant was 1 of 30 started from the same tree branch. All of the other young plants (in a different location) were completely healthy. I repeated the experiment and it occurred again.
In my professional career, I often perform certification tests under real world conditions to validate theoretical Engineered designs, the criteria for positive proof is being able to repeat the results.

4. Young plants that I received in June (from Almost Eden,in 4" pots) were bare rooted, pruned of all leaves with severe Rust and planted in 5 gallon buckets. All produced fig embryos (which were pinched) and grew more than 3 feet. This attests to the inherent vigor of the fig plants.

My conclusion from limited experience and other trials is that some of the negative symptoms associated with FMV (FMD) may be traced to other sources. There are plants with severe cases (deformed leaves and mottling), but with proper care most infected cultivars may still be productive.
My thoughts on propagation and sharing of fig cuttings are now positive. The growing and experimentation will continue.

Thanks to Jon V. and all the members on this forum for sharing this great addition to my Love of gardening. 


Attached Images
jpeg Negronne2(EL)10-3-12.JPG (141.26 KB, 201 views)
jpeg rust_mottling.JPG (132.75 KB, 181 views)
jpeg Negronne1(EL)9-30-12.JPG (288.00 KB, 88 views)
DesertDance

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,518
Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Wow!  And you are in New York!  Amazing!  Mediterranean climates are not affected by FMV at all, and it's interesting that in New York, it's fine too.  I'm sure you will get some flack from the New Yorker's here.  Nice to know you are not afraid!

Suzi
__________________
Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!"  Wish List:  I wish all of you happy fig collecting!  My wishes have been fulfilled!
Gina

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,260
Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Mediterranean climates are not affected by FMV at all,


I doubt this is true. Some figs do seem to grow out of it, but others remain stunted and obviously less healthy. Also, some are so infected they are difficult to root. We also don't know whether figs infected with FMV bear as much fruit as ones that might not have had it.

While here in the west trees seem less negatively influenced by it, and it's easier for Mediterranean growers to just live with it, everyone would be happier if FMV did not exist.
__________________


WillsC's new fig forum:   http://www.Ourfigs.com  (and blueberries)
dmartin

Registered:
Posts: 157
Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Pete,
Have you found a treatment that has worked for you to combat the leaf rust?  Have rust on a non fig (small cherry) and trying to decide if I will treat with agricultural sulfur?  It is so late in the year that I may have missed the window.  The leaves are starting to fall.

Wondering if rust is specific to a plant or will spread between plant varieties?  Interesting post.  Thank you!
__________________
Doug :) Zone 7A

Wish list: That all my figs will produce a bumper crop next summer!
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Suzi, What should I fear? I am making a statement based on my documented observations.

Gina, My observations are supported by your comment "Some figs do seem to grow out of it". This comment is repeated frequently on this site. If plants are provided with proper nutrition, water, soil and sun, they will grow to their optimum genetic capability. As far as bearing fruit, all my plants produced at least one fig at each leaf node, two plants formed double figs at several leaf nodes (Kadota and O'Rourke).

Doug, I have tried Copper and Sulfur, they work for about 2 weeks, but we have been getting rain every week. I have apples that were free of apple cedar rust(which incubates on Cedar trees), until last year, 6 out of 18 plants currently show symptoms of infection. Destroy all fallen leaves, It will reduce the spores. According to web literature Fig Leaf Rust spores do not survive the Cold. Spores may survive in leaf litter and compost piles. From my observations there were 2 distinct types (symptoms) of rust on the fig leaves.

Thanks
DesertDance

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,518
Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Pete, what should you fear?  Well the topic here is FMV, so that! 

But I commend you for your post and your lack of fear, and proof that fear is not required.

I like that you scientifically proved your point!  YAY!!

Many here have "fear," and I've had my share of getting slapped by members not named, for saying that "FMV is no big deal," and in this climate it is not. 

It's kind of an old topic, and almost like politics.  I think this, you think that... drone on and on............

Good luck with your trees, and I'm sure you have your UC Davis order in for the virus laden cuttings for 2013.  LOL!!

Suzi
__________________
Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!"  Wish List:  I wish all of you happy fig collecting!  My wishes have been fulfilled!
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Suzi,
Thanks again for commenting. As you can see, I don't fear FMV. I have read some of the older posts (I was lurking for months), that is why I am posting with my results. I believe that sharing info should be a priority for any Forum. I don't plan on ordering from UC Davis because there are enough varieties out there that I can choose from. My plan is for an in ground orchard with very few potted plants.
Dieseler

Registered:
Posts: 8,252
Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Pete thanks for your observations i showed pictures of FMV i think here in 2008/2009 under a grow light.

If i may chime in . I fear no FMV for my plants as i have shown in pictures produce and grow excellent.
I have plants from around the world , Italy, France, Baud Nursery,etc and they display FMV in spring and it tends to hide as season marches on and i get to enjoy some of the best figs out there .

I have had plants show nothing first season growing only to display it well the following season.

Next season to eat figs from some of the finer ones
Coll de Dame Noire
Violet Sollies
Noire de Barbentane
Roja
all have it its not a big deal for me personally.

Black Madeira is from UcDavis infected and was best in yard,you can see pictures i leave up for a short time here in this thread link below.

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Best-In-Yard-2012-6034342

As another unrelated note i have one of the most poisonous plants to have in yard - "Oleander"  its leaves can kill a horse if enough were to be eaten.
But its flowers smell will put most others to shame in my opinion and its to be treated with respect.
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,186
Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Pete- Are you totally sure about pic #3? I see the rust but it is uniform across the leaf, while mottling is not.

Suzi, many members who have been growing figs for much longer than you or I have made their own observations about FMV. Many others have researched the problem and also presented that information without bias. I have never seen anyone here treat you less than politely, perhaps you are taking disagreements personally?
__________________
7a, DE
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,186
Posted Reply with quote  #10 
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/fig-problem-3597513?highlight=necrotic
__________________
7a, DE
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Martin, Thanks for your post.

Brent, Yes I am certain. The uniform rust spots are in thicker older leaves. The mottling occurs in newly emerged leaves only. I correlate it with leaf thickness, thinner young leaves = mottling. I will be repeating the experiment again, if the weather permits, I have more rust free plants.
Thanks for the link to the PDF document on FMV.
DesertDance

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,518
Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Pete,

My wish list never contains varieties I can order from UC Davis, because that's just easy.  But trading treasured varieties is what this forum can offer over all others! 

I do love research, and I think you did good!  Useful information!

Suzi
__________________
Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!"  Wish List:  I wish all of you happy fig collecting!  My wishes have been fulfilled!
BronxFigs

Registered:
Posts: 1,864
Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Good topic...good information, and controversy can be a good thing, because we might learn something new from the exchanges of ideas and arguments, either pro, or, con.  Thanks for the photos, and insightful observations.

In post # 5 :

...."If plants are provided with proper nutrition, water, soil and sun, they will grow to their optimum genetic capability"....well... maybe, and maybe not.  One can only hope that this will be true, but I fear good culture may not be enough to save many plants from the ravages of FMV...especially if the plants are stressed, and weakened.  I would rather not deal with compromised plants, but sometimes it can't be avoided if you MUST have a certain variety.  You learn to live with it.  My goal would be to have a FMV-free collection, as opposed to becoming good at ignoring setbacks as they arise in bad seasons.  Rusts come and go, but FMV doesn't.  Good culture may suppress, but will not eliminate this virus.

                                       **********************************************************************

There's a non-toxic product called  "Green-Cure".  I used this, and got good results...BUT, in the rainy, Fall weather, it washes away and has to constantly be reapplied.  I'm basically lazy.  Now, I just let the rusty leaves turn yellow, and fall off naturally.  My trees look so ratty by this time of the year, I'm glad the leaves are dropping.


My thoughts.

Frank
__________________
Bronx, NYC
Zone-7
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Suzi, My foray into figs was started as a gift of 4 cutting from two trees growing in the Bronx, in the early part of April. My interests stems from the hardiness of the fig plants and fruit (no pesticides). My goal is to acquire cold hardy, productive varieties for fruit production and these are already in circulation.
Gardening is my only hobby (vice), so I may approach it too clinically.

Frank, Thanks. I am not implying that improved cultural practices will make a severely infected plant produce. I am saying that any plant, Including figs will produce Optimally, when given the best growing conditions. Leaving out hot day time temperatures, a fig plant should grow and produce figs at each leaf note optimally. If it is not warm enough to ripen figs that is another problem. If the plant is too sick to grow, with optimal conditions it should be destroyed (my opinion).
Thanks
SEGeo

Registered:
Posts: 517
Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Pete,

I wish to thank you for taking an engineering approach to the problem and performing small scaled experiments with repeated observations.

Personally my main passion in now being focused on breeding. I am scouring and actively hunting for hardy varieties, which also contain flavors which are of the better varieties. I have been looking and finding abandoned figs in some of the worst places. Today while up in Williamsburg, Va I found some small seedlings in a group not four feet from the side of the interstate. Will see how they do next year as I had no shovel or digging device and just pulled them out of the ground. 
__________________
Chris Fairchild
Virginia Beach, Va.
USDA Hardiness Zone 8a
Graduate Student - Engineering and GeoScience
***I assume all my figs carry FMV***

Wish List:
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Chris,

Thanks. I have a cutting recovery kit, It my car. It consists of a 12Qt tub, pruning shears, large garden trowel, plastic bags, 1 gallon of potting soil, 1 ball of twine and 1 quart of water. It is all stored inside the 12 qt tub (thanks to The Boy Scouts). I am always on the look out for healthy plants, and most home owners are happy to share, if asked.

Good luck and good hunting.
noss

Registered:
Posts: 2,122
Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Hi Pete,

Maybe you should include some Clorox wipes to disinfect the blades in case you see more than one tree you need to have cuttings from, to make your kit complete.

noss
__________________
noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.
Dieseler

Registered:
Posts: 8,252
Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Pics taken by me in 2009.
Worse case of mottling and worse infected plant with cocktails of Fmv strains is ischia black UcDavis specimen in this picture.I call it bubbling of the leaf. : )
That ischia bllack finally died with my experimenting.

The other 2 are also fmv in  very early stages to the eye - look real close , those 2 leaves are from UcDavis Madeira which will always have it as fmv just hides and does not go away permanently has been my observations.
This madeira grew into a wonderful plant that produce many figs and best tasting  figs on my palate in yard 2012.
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,186
Posted Reply with quote  #19 
I must have misunderstood Pete. I will see if I can notice this in the future.
__________________
7a, DE
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Brent,
re: leaf mottling
I observed two (2) different Leaf Rust Fungus, one formed large spots and one formed small spots, with associated large and small spore capsules on underside of leaves. The rust that formed smaller spots was the one I believe to be responsible for the leaf mottling. I hand water the plants in the morning, and check for growth and insects. at night I check the plants by flash light (I usually get home after dark). It only takes 20 minutes total for the figs and is done 7 days per week rain or shine, so I was aware of the changes in the leaves.

Noss, I carry a 16 oz bottle of rubbing alcohol at all times, but it is not part of my Kit, but good call, I will add a 10% bleach solution is a 16 oz bottle (less waste and expense). Most trees in NYC are healthy.

Martin, I call it "savoy" like in the cabbage. Thanks for the pics I appreciate your input.
MichaelTucson

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,216
Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin
Have you found a treatment that has worked for you to combat the leaf rust?


Doug, I've used Neem Oil on leaf rust, just this past summer.  (I got that advice from someone on here... I was leery of copper and sulphur, because I didn't want to use those things on a food crop).  I applied it every three days, and had cut off the worst parts of the rusty leaves first.  I didn't have high hopes, but it worked.  The rust seemed to be gone after about 2 weeks.  It probably helped that it wasn't terribly rainy in the week or so following the treatment.  It was a Chikishlyarskii tree, fairly light, and because it was in the high heat of summer, I had to be careful not to let it burn up from the direct sun while the Neem Oil was in use (it blocks up leaf pores).  Yet I didn't want to rinse it with water, so I just moved it to bright shade for a couple of weeks while I was applying the Neem Oil.

As for FMV, I've had some experience similar to Pete's, also in upstate NY.  But for me, the jury is still out on how I'll handle the clearly infected FMV trees.  Though most of them got stronger through the summer, when a second wave of rust infestation hit in September, it seemed as though the FMV trees fared worse than those that are seemingly free of FMV.  I have trees with FMV as well as some that show no sign of having it  (I keep them segregated, but I suspect it's only a matter of time before the seemingly "clean" ones become infected, if they aren't already).  Of course, there are necessarily other variables too, since I have them segregated by about 125 feet with a building in between... so it's hard to conclude that FMV played a role in how much negative affect accrued from the leaf rust.  I suspect it's true that it did play a role, but this was not some scientifically controlled experiment... just regular old observation, without controls. 

Mike   central NY state, zone 5
__________________
Pauca sed matura.
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Mike,

In my observations, FMV was not the major problem, it was leaf rust. Any damage to leaves or roots affect plant growth, and all my leaves were being damaged. Most of the plants in NYC, that I have seen, are practically rust free. They are currently growing Healthy and green.

If you rule out fixed variables like FMV Infection and proper Culture, you are left with the other variables that affect growth and production.
This is to say that I start with the assumption that all trees have FMD (FMV). as a given, so changing of fixing the other variables (water, sun, nutrition, insects, diseases, temperature) will either give you positive or negative results.
Thanks for contributing.
DWD2

Registered:
Posts: 140
Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Pete - Thank you for your post and this discussion it has engendered. I am not sure what point(s) you intend to communicate with your 3 pictures. The 3rd picture clearly shows fig mosaic disease (FMD). As an aside, while mottling disease is typically referred to as FMV (fig mosiac/mottling virus) in posts on this forum, it is now called FMD in the scientific literature. What is your basis for calling the lesions you see on your leaves rust? Have you cultured the fungus or done some other definitive biological identification? My understanding based on my reading is that fig rust is typically restricted to the Southeastern US and would be unusual in New York. I live in Northern California and I have encountered lesions very similar to what I see in your pictures. Since I am a scientist in the biological sciences, I have access to good microscopes. I have microscopically examined the lesions on a number of my leaves and they are decidedly not rust. I have a number of references on fig rust. None of your leaf lesions appear to be rust to me. Hopefully you can see the differences from this publication:
http://www.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdonlyres/3CB47A0E-BCBD-4802-B05A-B60386A052AA/71575/pub3159FigRustHIGHRES.pdf
What your lesions (and mine) DO look like is the necrosis you see from FMD. Please note Figure 1c and the pictures in Table 2 in this publication.
http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/agriculture/issues/tar-09-33-5/tar-33-5-6-0807-20.pdf

Should you or any of the other fig fanatics out there get fig rust, the usual recommendation is to treat with 5-5-50 Bordeaux spray (copper sulfate, lime, water) every 2 weeks for control. There may be a more organic approach. Mike's suggestion of Neem Oil is a good one. There may be something on the OMRI website too.

I do think you are spot on in saying FMD should not prevent you from growing great figs & have a ton of fun doing it if you work to maintain good plant health. There are an array of viruses that are demonstrated to cause some form of FMD. FMD has turned-out to be a very complex subject. Until experiments are done with trees proven to be FMD free in well controlled experiments, we are left to speculate on what the true impact on tree growth & fig production FMD has. Right or wrong, it is a widely accepted view in the scientific fig writings that FMD slows the growth of trees and reduces fruit yield. My bias is that there are no FMD free trees circulating in this fig community or currently available through any nursery. Others feel they do have FMD free trees. None of us can know for sure until the plants are examined with molecular biology techniques for the viral genetic material. Make no mistake, I would dearly love for my bias to be wrong. Until the day when certified FMD free trees are available, one can try to follow the lead of the folks on this forum who work hard to obtain examples of each cultivar that do not show any obvious FMD symptoms and keep them as happy & healthy as you can.

Good luck with your trees!
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #24 
DWD2,

Thanks for posting and the added PDF documents.

Most of the plants that I currently own were grown in the south. The pictured plant (VDB) is from the south (Virginia). The picture was to show the plant growth in one short season. Most were in 1 gallon planters. All were received with Rust spots and nodules on the back of the leaves. All were sprayed with copper fungicide several times during the growing season, to retard the spread of rust. Yes the leaves are beginning to yellow and die. We are experiencing nighttime temps in the 40's. Until the beginning of September there were no major problems. No spread of rust. Once it started raining weekly four weeks ago,the Rust started to spread. I have stopped spraying because the leaves are yellowing and falling anyway. The lesions on the back of the leaves are a reddish tan or light brown. I believe they will be killed by the cold.

Here is a web site with better description and pictures of Leaf Rust. http://plantpath.caes.uga.edu/extension/plants/fruitandnuts/commonfigrust.html

The lesions that you have examined, what are they? Do you have a more detailed description and picture of a necrotic lesion? Do necrotic lesions extend past the back of the leaf? I have access to electron microscopes and more in a large medical research facility, researchers and technicians trained to use them, but this is my hobby, not a career. I am not planning an extended scientific investigation. If the question is still being asked next season I will drop off leaves at Cornell Agricultural Extension for testing.

As stated my conclusions arise from my observations. I am not disputing any FMD (FMV) claims scientific or otherwise. The only point I was trying to make is that you can get a reasonable production from an infected plant.

Thanks

Attached is a picture of a VDB/Negronne Leaf back, showing rust nodules. If the leaf was not sprayed regularly with fungicide, it would have turned brown and died earlier in the season.

Attached Images
jpeg Leaf_Rust_Rear.JPG (82.80 KB, 70 views)
BronxFigs

Registered:
Posts: 1,864
Posted Reply with quote  #25 
For what little I thought I knew about the common diseases that can infect figs, I recognize the photos of fig rust shown in the first link to the LSU Agricultural Center...in post #23.  Those pictured leaves look just like the leaves on my fig trees, but only at this time of year.  I think all the dew, and nighttime condensation has a lot to do with the spread of rusts.

The mottled leaves in  Pete's photos, I think, look like FMV to me, but I'm probably wrong.  I never really made it a point to look at my plants from a scientists point of view.  The spotty leaves still look unhealthy to me, even if the plant is a strong and vigorous grower.

Funny...I never knew that a fig tree could get  any diseases until I started to read all the postings on the fig forums, and then, seeing photos of diseased trees.  Almost none of the trees in The Bronx, and/or surrounding areas ever look infected with, whatever.  In my area, the leaves turn bright yellow and then fall off the trees.  But, here's something strange...all my trees get rusty leaves, while surrounding trees do not.  Why?  I'll bet it has something to do with the abundance of water and food that I give my cultivated, containerized, trees, as opposed to the hard life of the in-ground trees.  I'll bet the in-ground, neglected trees, are stronger, and resist diseases better than my "spoiled" trees.  The "Life-of-Rielly" trees are more easily affected by adverse conditions.  THIS IS ONLY SPECULATION.

Just some observations.

Frank
__________________
Bronx, NYC
Zone-7
MichaelTucson

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,216
Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascpete
In my observations, FMV was not the problem, it was leaf rust. 


Pete, my point really is just that it appears to me that when a tree is infected with FMV (any of the four or more viruses that cause FMD), that tree is then more susceptible to rust.  Or at least I'll say that it seems to suffer more deleterious effects once it gets rust.  It is as if the tree is weakened because of its viral infection, making it more susceptible to attack by molds and a variety of other pathogens.  It seems reasonable that this would be the case (and I'm reasonably convinced that the dynamic works that way, whether it's been scientifically demonstrated or not).  So I'm suggesting that your observation about the problem being leaf rust (rather than FMV) might not be the whole story -- I think that you shouldn't think of these tree pathogens as an either/or situation.  The two variables (leaf rust, and FMD) likely have some linkage, so viewing two diseases in isolation might not be the right way to draw conclusions.  "Tree health" involves a complex dynamic.

(Just consider human pathology as a parallel... if someone contracts a virus (whether vicious or weak), and that weakens his/her immune response to the point where they get a secondary infection that kills them, which disease really caused the problem?).   If I filled in the blanks by naming the first pathogen and the second one, I could paint two different example pictures where everybody would clearly blame the first pathogen in one example, yet they'd blame the second pathogen in another example.

I am glad though, that you're finding it feasible to grow trees with good overall health, good vitality, and good production, despite their infections with FMV.  (And to those who add "even in NY!", I'd add that it's possible that some of these infections may cause LESS problem in a climate with cold winters... "FMV" after all is at least 4 different kinds of virus, so FMV is not one "thing").  Anyway, I'm glad you're having some successes even with FMV-infected trees.  I am too, though for me the jury is out for the long term... my goal is inground trees that can survive a zone 5 winter with very minimal protection and yet stay productive.  I suspect that some of these viruses might weaken the trees too much for that.  Good luck, and let's keep comparing notes on our experiences!

Mike   central NY state, zone 5
__________________
Pauca sed matura.
MichaelTucson

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,216
Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BronxFigs
I'll bet the in-ground, neglected trees, are stronger, and resist diseases better than my "spoiled" trees.


Frank, that fits with my experience too.  It could be because, out of all the neglected trees, only the strongest survive.  (So the neglected ones that don't survive aren't around to be seen, and they don't make an impression on our experience, i.e. the "affect heuristic" as psychologists might say in describing experiential learning).  Or it could be (as you suggest) because in overcoming the adversities they face, they become stronger.  I too think it works that way... that really fits what I've seen.  A mature tree that has faced difficult weather seems MUCH better able to face difficult weather again, compared with a similarly aged tree that hasn't faced that adversity.  The "coddled and pampered" trees aren't as strong... they might produce much better in decent weather, but throw a curveball at their growing conditions and they can't handle it.  (And incidentally, also better than a young tree that hasn't faced adversity either, though youth represents an additional vulnerability). 

I think it's probably a combination of both factors.  And it's just a speculation for me too, but what the heck, I believe it's actually true.  :-) 

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

p.s.  What you suggest seems right.  Just look at lawncare for analogy... two neighbors, one who feeds his lawn with "chem lawn" and lots of watering, and the other who more or less neglects his lawn.  Which lawn does better when extended drought hits (and watering is restricted)?  Obviously the one with roots.
__________________
Pauca sed matura.
MichaelTucson

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,216
Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Man, reading my own post (above), I'm laughing at myself for being so wordy.    All it says is "trees adapt to their conditions".   (Duh).  LOL  (at myself).

Mike
__________________
Pauca sed matura.
dkirtexas

Registered:
Posts: 1,327
Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Please heed the warning about the Oleander mentioned in Martins posting in this thread.  The Oleander is a deadly plant and all should be aware of the dangers.  It can kill you in several ways -ingestion, smoke, chewing a leaf, cooking hot dogs with the branches or over burning branches.  The sap will cause great ulcers wherever it touches. Please heed the warnings.  KEEP ALL CHILDREN AWAY FROM OLEANDER
__________________
Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
Waskom Tx Zone 7B/8

Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
DWD2

Registered:
Posts: 140
Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Pete- In my initial reply, I hope I made it clear that I see your primary point and completely agree with it. You have generated a really good discussion. Kudos to you!

You do not need anything as sophisticated as an electron microscope. The pictures that you see in Figure 2 of the LSU pdf were taken with a modestly high powered dissecting scope. The one I use does not have a camera attachment. So, I can not take take similar pictures. When I examined the lesions on my fig leaves, I just saw dead leaf on both sides of the spot. I have used the same scope to look at rust disease on apricot leaves (not my trees thankfully). You can see the spores just like in Figure 2. The literature on fig rust indicates that, as the rust progresses, the leaves tend to curl up prior to dropping exactly like you see in the bottom photo of Figure 1 on the LSU pdf. Note the leaf to the left of the one whose back side is shown. I do have a plant that has some browned spots/necrotic lesions that appear to be caused as part of FMD. I will try to get some pictures this weekend and post them to compare. To do in-garden examines, I typically use a 30x jeweler's loop. Even at that magnification, I could really see the powdery quality of the rust lesion on the apricot leaves last year. Then, under the scope, the spores were clear.
http://www.amazon.com/SE-Triplet-Jewelers-Loupe-30X/dp/B001BSGGQ2/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1349456039&sr=8-10&keywords=triplet+hand+lens

Frank indicates he believes he is getting rust too. My call may be wrong, but I hope the exchange of information is useful. If you do have rust, you should consider segregating any infected tree(s). It is also recommended that you collect and burn leaves from rust infected fig trees as the leaves drop off.

The good news for everyone is that fig trees are relatively pest and disease free. In-ground trees can get nematode infestations which can be a serious problem in the South. Figs are occasionally attacked by scale insects, mealybugs and a variety of borers. Fig rust and FMD are really the common problems with FMD being by far the biggest hassle.

Good luck with your trees!
dmartin

Registered:
Posts: 157
Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Mike,
Thank you for the information.  I have some apples that I have never spayed and bag the apples after the blossoms set.  Was thinking about using Neem oil before the trees come out of dormancy.  Thank you for the tip on rust.

Sorry for being off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelTucson
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin
Have you found a treatment that has worked for you to combat the leaf rust?


Doug, I've used Neem Oil on leaf rust, just this past summer.  (I got that advice from someone on here... I was leery of copper and sulphur, because I didn't want to use those things on a food crop).  I applied it every three days, and had cut off the worst parts of the rusty leaves first.  I didn't have high hopes, but it worked.  The rust seemed to be gone after about 2 weeks.  It probably helped that it wasn't terribly rainy in the week or so following the treatment.  It was a Chikishlyarskii tree, fairly light, and because it was in the high heat of summer, I had to be careful not to let it burn up from the direct sun while the Neem Oil was in use (it blocks up leaf pores).  Yet I didn't want to rinse it with water, so I just moved it to bright shade for a couple of weeks while I was applying the Neem Oil.



Mike   central NY state, zone 5
__________________
Doug :) Zone 7A

Wish list: That all my figs will produce a bumper crop next summer!
BronxFigs

Registered:
Posts: 1,864
Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Pete...et al.

Thanks for re-visiting this much discussed topic, and the source of much aggravation with us growers.  It's too bad that this FMV has to lurk around our coveted fig trees, like a heckler, ready to spoil the show with poorly-timed comments. 

I learned good useful information from this exchange of ideas, and I had no idea that Oleander was, and could be so dangerous...even destructive.  Thanks Danny K.  Similar warnings should be attached to Castor Bean ( Ricinus communis) the source for the deadly Ricin poison.  Many of us gardeners grow this plant for the ornamental, exotic, leaves.

Anyway...I'm glad I didn't yawn, and pass this thread by when I was browsing.



Frank
__________________
Bronx, NYC
Zone-7
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #33 
Frank, There are many reasons that ground trees grow healthier and stay green longer that potted trees and that can be for another topic. One simple example is the thermal mass of the ground. It may take longer to heat up than your Container, but it stays warmer later into the fall. Your container will be closer to air temperature, while the earth slowly cools down. Most areas remain no lower than 50 Deg F below 3 Feet (FrostLine North east). Please note the depth and temperatures varies based on location.

Mike, I agree with your comments. I am not advocating perpetuating diseased trees. I'm pointing out that some diseased trees (if not severe)may be made to produce given proper care. Varieties that I grow will be Cold hardy and productive first, If they also have FMD (FMV) that is a secondary issue. I will be comparing notes with you, guaranteed.

DWD2, I understood. I appreciated your posts they have been informative. I may have access to dissecting scopes with cameras and the technicians, I will try to get a picture. The reason why the fig rust is in spots is that the plants were sprayed several times, over the season retarding the Rust growth. As noted they were sprayed on a regular schedule until the weather changed. I don't think anyone would allow the rust to spread beyond small spots. The nodules on the underside of the leaf are visible with the naked eye, a magnifying glass would ease the eye strain.

Here is a Website with better descriptions and pictures of Leaf Rust.

http://plantpath.caes.uga.edu/extension/plants/fruitandnuts/commonfigrust.html


Diatomaceous earth worked for repelling most insects including ants. Simply dust the plants, stand upwind and wear a mask.

Alan, I agree with your statement! That is one of my points Use "Best Cultural Practice" If the tree does not survive and produce, it probably never will, and you are wasting your time.

Thanks
BronxFigs

Registered:
Posts: 1,864
Posted Reply with quote  #34 
Pete...

I forgot to remember all about in-ground vs. containerized growing regarding  stabilized soil temperatures, and soil moisture.  Of course...now it's obvious....far less stress for in-ground trees.  I should've thunk of that.  Old brain.

The final curtain is about to fall, and my figs will be quiescent until next Spring.  Looking forward to some good things next year.  Good luck with your fig orchard.


Frank
__________________
Bronx, NYC
Zone-7
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Frank, Thanks and good luck to you. Your harvest may be over, but the in ground trees in the Bronx are still producing. There a few late ripening varieties and late figs on ever-bearing varieties that are still ripening. I took a walk at lunchtime today and acquired cuttings from two old Italian American families. Will post on another topic when I get more background.
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #36 
MichaelTucson,

I wanted to confirm your observation that Rust, seems to affect FMD infected plants more severely than healthier plants. All the fig leaves are currently covered in rust due to the rains and my stopping treatment (Fungicide spraying). The leaves of the mission fig plant although not mottled before, are being mottled by Rust. The mottling seems to occur, when droplets of water are forming on the underside of the leaf. The rust infects (inoculates) the area covered by the droplet and then grows into the leaf, mottling them. This in not occurring on plants with thicker leaves at this time. I do not know if this is due to leaf thickness, or genetics, my observations will continue. I will post picture when it stops raining.

Note attached pictures taken today. I was able to watch the transformation due to several days of wet weather.

Attached Images
jpeg Rust_thick-thin_Front.JPG (138.34 KB, 56 views)
jpeg Rust_thick-thin_Rear.JPG (141.26 KB, 53 views)
MichaelTucson

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,216
Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Alan,
Exactly.  That's what I was saying above in post #26.

Mike
__________________
Pauca sed matura.
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,186
Posted Reply with quote  #38 
I should have kept my big mouth shut Pete! I saw quite alot of this so far this spring. I must have had some rust overwinter on a cutting or last years leaves were disposed of a little too close. The spread was very rapid, I was really worried for a bit until i remembered your thread : ). The appearance really can vary depending on where the spores land.

I am spraying with serenade regularly and used one light dose of copper (don't want to hurt my baby mantises) and removed badly infected leaves. I took some pictures but the memory card was not in the camera so until I can find the cord or learn how to transfer the to the card I am going to need to do it again.

Thanks for your careful observation.
__________________
7a, DE
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,186
Posted Reply with quote  #39 
OK I got it, there is a backup selection in the setup menu, duh.

p.s. I also added a pic of some baby turtles that were laid under a fig tree, also trapped in the camera, enjoy!

Attached Images
jpeg P6100074.JPG (583.08 KB, 32 views)
jpeg P6100073.JPG (576.88 KB, 33 views)
jpeg P6100071.JPG (506.21 KB, 34 views)
jpeg P6100072.JPG (574.40 KB, 54 views)
jpeg P9050051.JPG (573.32 KB, 54 views)


__________________
7a, DE

ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #40 
Brent,
Thanks for commenting and bumping. Thanks for the pictures. I bagged all the fallen fig leaves and took them to the transfer station (dump) last year. I've been pretty lucky so far, No signs of Rust, even with all the rain. Hopefully you will be able to get ahead of it.

I cant tell from the picture of the leaf underside, are there rust nodules forming?
bullet08

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 6,920
Posted Reply with quote  #41 
not sure if FMV and rust are some how related or not. i notice FMV on younger plants that i keep under the shade, or the tress that are just putting out leaves during the spring. after some type of stress, as in lack of water, too much heat, it will show FMV also. however, rust, at least for me, only shows up if the tree has been out in the open for long time under wet condition. 

one thing i noticed this spring is that sudden growth spur seems to increase the severity of the FMV and weakened leaves. they are more sensitive to the sun and will get burned easier. 

personally, FMV doesn't bother me. there is only one plant that has severe problem. Ischia Green from UCD. this plant will just not grow at all. not sure if it's FMV or something else, but it just won't grow much at all. all the other trees, once about 2 yrs old and left in the sun, so far as shown me great health. 

my trees in 3 gal did not get water whole week last week. they all show some sign of FMV. while getting plenty of water and fertilizer week before didn't show much of an issue. 

i'm more or less shocked at how well Calvert is doing so far. i was planning to get rid of all and keep only one, but i ended up keeping 3. two of which has some sign of FMV, other two showing very minor case of it. all of them are growing very well, and one of them shows very interesting leaf shape compare to other two, it's uniform and has 5 lobes. other two only shows 1 or 3 lobe leaves. 
__________________
Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,186
Posted Reply with quote  #42 
Yes it is hard to tell in the photo but the rust first turns rusty colored on the undersides of the leaves. I edited the photo with "retinex" and it can be seen a little easier now. This is the underside of the leaf from pic 3 above.

Attached Images
jpeg rust_underside.JPG (723.78 KB, 40 views)


__________________
7a, DE

ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #43 
Update to the Opening post 9/15/13

I seperated the sucker from the roots of the mother VDB (both pictured in OP) and potted it in April 2013. It has grown steadily and has not shown any visible signs of FMD. All the visible growth is from this season, due to dieback of last years tender branches. I've pinches all but one (1) fig to allow the plant to invest all its energy into vegetative growth. The soil line caliper is already over 1 inch. This is the second year that this sucker has not shown any FMD symptoms.

The mother tree was bare rooted in April 2013 and has already ripened almost a dozen figs, with more swelling daily. I've observed that the lowest branch on the tree shows the least amount of visible FMD, while all the upper branches have all the visible symptoms including asymmetrical (deformed) leaves.

Petite Negri, is another cultivar that shows visible FMD symtoms. Although the FMD symtoms are still visible, it has grown quickly since an added application of an Iron supplement (Ironite). I plan on encouraging the growth of suckers (from the roots) next year, to see if the resulting plant is healthier that the mother as in the case of the VDB.

One reason I'm encouraged by this possible finding is that I personally plan on propagating (cuttings and air layers) only from trees that show no visible signs of FMD. Also, this year the VDB sucker and Petite Negri have not suffered any major leaf damage due to Rust, although it is visible and has inoculated most of the older potted trees.

Attached Images
jpeg Visible_FMD_symptom_backlighting3_8-24-13.jpg (129.71 KB, 19 views)
jpeg Visible_FMD_symptom_backlighting_8-24-13.jpg (112.42 KB, 20 views)
jpeg Leaf_VDBEL_BranchlessVisibleFMD_9-15-13.jpg (146.53 KB, 24 views)
jpeg Leaf_VDBEL_BranchVisibleFMD_9-15-13.jpg (142.46 KB, 21 views)
jpeg Leaf_VDBELsucker_No_visibleFMD_9-15-13.jpg (156.52 KB, 22 views)
jpeg Leaf_VDBELsucker1_No_visibleFMD_9-15-13.jpg (131.31 KB, 21 views)
jpeg Leaf_PetiteNegriEL_9-4-13.jpg (100.43 KB, 18 views)
rafaelissimmo

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,473
Posted Reply with quote  #44 
Hi Pete

My containerized plants are basically crammed side by side in my driveway, I have a question after one branch of a tree grown from a cutting developed what appeared to be rust. Does rust or fmv spread just by being passed through the air? Would my other trees get it from the one bad branch? Any fallen leaves are removed or blown far away by me. Let me know

Thx

Rafael
__________________
Zone 7b, Queens, New York
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #45 
Rafael,
Fig Leaf Rust is caused by a fungal infection and is airborne.
Basic Orchard hygiene will decrease the severity of a rust outbreak, like removing fallen leaves, pruning and spraying with a fungicide.
Leaf_TreesOnSouthPath_9-6-13.jpg 

Fig Mosaic Disease (FMD) symptoms are sometimes caused by a viral infection often by Fig Mosaic viruses (FMV).
FMV can't be spread by proximity, it can be spread by specific fluid exchanges (mostly by fig mites) and it can take only one feeding.
If you do a search there has been a lot of information posted.

BTW fig mites don't survive the cold in the Eastern USA, but they can be transported in the unopened leaf buds during spring and summer.
Darkman

Registered:
Posts: 629
Posted Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascpete
Rafael,
Fig Leaf Rust is caused by a fungal infection and is airborne.
Basic Orchard hygiene will decrease the severity of a rust outbreak, like removing fallen leaves, pruning and spraying with a fungicide.


Hey Pete what fungicide is labeled for use on bearing fig trees?
__________________
Charles in Pensacola AKA Darkman
Zone 8b/9a
Winter of 09/10 low 19
Winter of 10/11 low 19
Winter of 11/12 low 29
Winter of 12/13 low 31
Winter of 13/14 low 19
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #47 
Charles,
Currently no Fungicides are specifically labeled for figs, but most of the Copper or Sulfur fungicides that are labeled for garden vegetables and fruits should work, many are labeled for use until harvest. I've used the Bonide Liquid Copper with very good results as posted in the Rust Topic.
Darkman

Registered:
Posts: 629
Posted Reply with quote  #48 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascpete
I've used the Bonide Liquid Copper with very good results as posted in the Rust Topic.


Thanks Pete 
__________________
Charles in Pensacola AKA Darkman
Zone 8b/9a
Winter of 09/10 low 19
Winter of 10/11 low 19
Winter of 11/12 low 29
Winter of 12/13 low 31
Winter of 13/14 low 19
ascpete

Registered:
Posts: 1,942
Posted Reply with quote  #49 
Alan,
Thanks for the comments.
The documented research has shown that FMV is not spread by seed to seedlings, but can be transmitted in as little as one (1) feeding by the fig mites. There seems to be a misunderstanding about the two (2) main vectors for spreading Fig Mosaic Virus (FMV). They are Fig Mites and Fig Growers, this is not an opinion, its documented fact. There are several universities in the USA and The Mediterranean, in commercial fig growing regions that have published papers with that statement.

Fig Mites are related to spiders and ticks. They do not cut, tear, rip or chew plant material, they insert their "mouth parts" through the plant cell membranes and suck out the plant fluids, in the process their "saliva" inoculates the plant cells with Mosaic Viruses, if they had been feeding on other infected plants. They can survive in unopened dormant buds and figs, but can only survive in temperate zones and do not "over winter".

Fig Growers graft, propagate and circulate infected plant material. They also imported fig cultivars, Capri figs and Fig wasps from the Mediterranean to improve the commercial fig industry. Due to the fact that Fig Mites can survive in figs and closed buds they have been relocated with the wasps and plant material to their new homes in these temperate zones.

This is not an indictment, just a statement of known documented facts.

I've observed that if visibly healthier limbs are propagated the young trees start out looking healthier, than when obviously diseased limbs (cuttings) are used. The other observation that I've made, IMO as stated previously, is that a lot of the FMD symptoms that are attributed to FMV are actually nutrient deficiencies and can be avoided with application of balanced fertilizers (macro and micro nutrients and better pH range). I have no knowledge of Hazelnuts, but as with everything in nature, DNA is programmed to adapt, which is why I posted my observations on the VDB sucker.

Charles,
You're welcome.
In full disclosure, I have not started any rust treatment this season due to the continuous rain. I have instead relied on maintaining healthier plants (a scheduled feeding program) and by surgically removing inoculated and damaged sections or entire leaves.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply