Italiangirl74
Registered:1189815225 Posts: 628
Posted 1254835016
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#1
Ciao Amici! I was just informed of a few facts, and wanted to share with you all and wanted to ask a few questions as well. I started a little website in the hopes of starting a little Mediterranean plant selling business, but I need to know the specifics about getting licenses ect to sell plants from home and even on ebay!!! I was told it could be illegal to sell plants from home, they call " backyard nurseries " the states vary but they all seem to say you need a special license to do so. I called the PDA here in Pennsylvania and am waiting on a reply still. I just want to do it the right way and wonder if anyone else may know this procedure or if their is something I have to specifically enquire about. I know there is a nursery license, but I wouldn't call what I am trying to do a nursery! Its more of a small profitable hobby. I get worried that I may have to pay out more money for a license than I will probably ever get from the figs, ect. I want to know if anyone else has to deal with this, I researched ebay and they said that the sellers of plants need to have a license especially backyard growers like myself. I don't know, others say they don't worry, I just want to know as the article about the fig smuggling on the forum made me dive further into understanding what you can and cannot do. It really hit a nerve with me reading about this poor older man and what they did to him. I know he had a different reason for his imprisonment, but when you start researching all the legal ways, all this new informations and do's and don't pop up. Thanks for listening.
__________________ Maggie Maria zone 7
pitangadiego
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Registered:1188871011 Posts: 5,447
Posted 1254838271
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#2
Maggie, Every state is different, both for selling and shipping, and for receiving. In California you are required to have a Nursery License before selling any plants (so technically selling a plant at a garage sale is illegal without the license). Every state has requirements and regulations about plants coming into their state, wihch are generally more stringent for plants which are in the same genus/family as things which they grow commercially. For me, anything going to southern tier states needs to be inspected and certified as snail free. Northern states don't care because they will all freeze in the winter, anyway. Because we have citrus, stone-fruit, wine and nut industires in CA, those plants are very tightly controlled when coming into CA, and even when moved around the state. Essentially all material coming into CA needs a phytosanitary cert, and thus all or nearly all Ebay sales which are shipped to CA are illegal. Here, all of this is handled by a county ag office, though the license comes from the state. So, I have a license, annual inspections, inspection and monitoring for Sudden Oak Death (SOD), monitoring and inspection for Glassy-winged Sharpshooters (Pierce's Disease vectors), Spent the last 6 months in a Fruit fly quarantine zone (couldn't move any fruit and several types of plant material), have county and state ag insect traps monitoring all sorts of things, have new regualtions and testing coming for water run-off (read $$), and each year something new gets added.
__________________ Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
xgrndpounder
Registered:1230074708 Posts: 810
Posted 1254839496
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#3
Jon,
Are you saying that even cuttings can't be sent to Ca.?
papayamon
Registered:1252148468 Posts: 284
Posted 1254858751
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#4
i know in florida if you're selling citrus it opens a big fat can of worms. i'm planning on a hobby business selling primarily muscadine grapes, trees (no citrus) and houseplants. i am investing probably 20 thousand dollars in it. there are very few who actually make substantial money with this, and i'm certainly not planning to do much more than grow a lot of my own food and recover my investment over a couple of years. i am definitely going to get a proper license. i have a medical license to protect (rn, becoming a nurse practitioner), and these days i pretty much live by the book, else it is an awkward hassle with the state board :).
there are nurseries going broke all over this state. the economy is bad, and my friends tell me their ornamental plant business is less than half of what it was a few years ago. i would definitely keep my investment down unless you have money to burn.
if you do it very small and you're not shipping internationally, i would think as a practical matter you can play dumb and apologize if and when you get caught. how many plants will you have shipped? a few hundred? if you don't antagonize them and just roll over and pee like a scared dog and make them feel powerful, they won't do much with you. that's my experience with bureaucrats.
we really don't know all the facts behind the guy with the orchids. clearly, his problems arose from international shipments. i'd like to read more in depth about his case.
__________________ mike
zone 8b, gainesville florida
OttawanZ5
Registered:1192897779 Posts: 2,551
Posted 1254867661
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#5
I guess pretty soon you may need a phyto-certificate to donate food to the 'Food Banks' too. I see so many ads for house-plants on sale on Kijiji websites because people are moving or down sizing. Will the government agents be getting busy with them too. If not then how does it differs from disposing some of your surplus plants from your backyard hobby! I guess the sellers may have to resort to ads like ' fig for a good home, donation required', or 'figs available for/on barter basis, money accepted for barter basis'!
__________________Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
Herman2
Registered:1189809424 Posts: 2,625
Posted 1254879929
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#6
In NJ,you have to have a nursery Certificate and a Bussiness permit,with authorization,to retain taxes,for local sales. The Departament of Agriculture come and inspect,your small nursery,and they will issue a certification,if no problem is found,if there is problems,then they will reinspect,another time,and you suppose to fix all problems,that were found at first inspection. If your place passes,you pay $75 for nursery certificate,and one will be sent to you. Of course a bussiness permitt is mandatory,and every 3 month one has to report all sales figures,and send the state tax to the NJ state treasury. When you get your licence,you will get informations,about,restriction,quarantine,etc. I do have everythink legal,so I sell my young figs as legal as it can be done. Best Regards H2
pitangadiego
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Registered:1188871011 Posts: 5,447
Posted 1254884964
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#7
Ottawan, In some states it is illegal to GIVE plants AWAY without a nursery license, even if the sale price is $0. Cecil, Cuttings coming from out side the country, or going outside the country do need a license, phyto, etc. Of the 1000s of nurseries/growers in San Diego County, only one has been able to get the paperwork to ship to any place in the EU: that would be Paul Ecke (poinsettias). And it has taken several years, special quarantine facilities, weekly pesticide spray programs, etc. Even USDA/UC Davis cannot get a phyto to ship cuttings to the EU countries. Read the post about Fig Smuggler Beware for more http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3698387 When the new run-off regulations kick in in a year and a half, or so, I may have to give up selling plants. The cost of all the permits, inspections, etc. is quickly becoming prohibitive for all but volume producers/sellers, and then only a few things will be available, and the heirloom stuff will become increasingly hard to find. The water run-off testing will probably be $2-300, and maybe more per year. That moves the break even point another 15-20 trees further away. Welcome to the real world.
__________________ Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
OttawanZ5
Registered:1192897779 Posts: 2,551
Posted 1254885857
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#8
Jon, What would the poor plants do then! How will one green world happen? Far away in the future I can see that trees in the parks will have 'phyto-certificates' hanging over them. Others will have their 'phyto-certificates' rescinded until further tests so rubbing with those trees will not transmit disease to other locations. Just thinking loud....
__________________Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
Italiangirl74
Registered:1189815225 Posts: 628
Posted 1254927402
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#9
Ciao Everyone, Jon, wow, that is so much legalities you poor man you have to go through. Thanks everyone for replies. I called Harrisburg at the Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture and spoke with a very nice friendly man, he helped me out immensely and yes, In order for me to start my business or even sell or mail or share a fig tree, I need to send the 40.00 and I filled out the application and he said it doesn't take long to get my license, so everything should be okay, I am very happy that now I know what i can and can't do. After i receive my license, I will be able to sell my various plants and even mail them too.Even so much as trading and mailing them, was against the law!!!!!!!!!, so I am on the way and my license should come soon, I feel much better now, Honestly, I never knew there was sooo much involved in even this hobby. Not just with selling but distributing plant material through the country. Also my application for legalling bringing family figs from Italy and not having them sent illegally to me!!!! This is what the laws here in Pennsylvania are, its different state to state, but if anyone wants to know the ins and outs, I would say call your Department of Agriculture and chat with these people so you know what the laws are in your state. What I was doing, I will not be doing until I get this license. Ciao Amici e Famiglia on Fig for fun forum. Maggie
__________________ Maggie Maria zone 7
Jstall
Registered:1249869019 Posts: 153
Posted 1254929268
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#10
Glad you got your information. Hope you tell us what you will be selling. My collection is still very small and I am looking for trees and cuttings.
__________________ J.A. N.E. TX Zone 8 Wish list; Martin's Unknown (NOT ITALIAN)
johnvalenzuela
Registered:1201207254 Posts: 22
Posted 1254932767
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#11
papayamon 'we really don't know all the facts behind the guy with the orchids. clearly, his problems arose from international shipments. i'd like to read more in depth about his case.' __________________ mike zone 8b, gainesville florida Hey Mike, I don't have all the facts in this situation, but for more details on the background of the 'Orchid raid', see my post dated 10/06/09 on the "if you are a fig smuggler BEWARE..." thread. Read my summary there, and/or you can really get into it by reading all this stuff: Pittman, C. "The Case of the Purloined Orchid." Sarasota Magazine, Mar 2005.http://www.sarasotamagazine.com/Articles/Sarasota-Magazine/2005/03/The-Case-of-the-Purloined-Orchid.asp?ht= see photos of this rare orchid, and some more detailed botanical history here:http://www.ottawaorchidsociety.com/september_2007.pdf Some other internet articles:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phragmipedium_kovachii http://www.greenzoo.net/trouble.htm http://www.pollenatrix.com/pollenatrix/2004/03/online_orchid_d.html US Fish and Wildlife Service, they enforce the laws of CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species): Annual Report FY 2004, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, Office of Law Enforcement, August 2005, see P. 16http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/AnnualReportFY2004.pdf. USFWS press release "Two Individuals Indicted in Miami for Smuggling Protected Peruvian Orchids"http://www.fws.gov/southeast/news/2004/r04-021.html A legal brief on the appeal of Mr. Norris' conviction:http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:a3HPNjWKTXcJ:openjurist.org/452/f3d/1275/united-states-v-w-norris+George+W.+Norris,+texas+orchids&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
__________________ John Valenzuela, Novato, California, SF Bay Area, Sunset zone 16-17, USDA 10a
twobrothersgarden
Registered:1355136466 Posts: 332
Posted 1355454914
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#12
i have ordered trees from amazon, and had them shipped to CA...I'm growing them for myself...Was this illegal?
__________________Henry, Brawley, California, 9B YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/thetwobrothersgarden/videos?view=0 Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/two-brothers-2013
rcantor
Registered:1309799312 Posts: 5,727
Posted 1355455780
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#13
When you get going let us know! I bet you'll have things I'll buy. :)
__________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.
garden_whisperer
Registered:1353347580 Posts: 1,613
Posted 1355456379
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#14
you have to look at your state and local laws. i dont have to have any special licens or permits, all i had to do was run an add in the paper stating what the biz name was for 30 days. if noone contested i was in biz.
__________________ Dave Zone 6b Illinois "Be the change you wish to see in the world"
DesertDance
Registered:1247674606 Posts: 4,518
Posted 1355457849
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#15
Dave, anyone can get a business license, but that is not permission to sell agricultural products across state lines. Entirely different thing! Suzi
__________________ Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!" Wish List: I wish all of you happy fig collecting! My wishes have been fulfilled!
bullet08
Registered:1284496248 Posts: 6,920
Posted 1355486837
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#16
that is a beautiful orchid. i wonder what it would taste like...
__________________ Pete Durham, NC Zone 7b "don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher ***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. ***** ***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
JackHNVA
Registered:1352380899 Posts: 519
Posted 1355487424
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#17
Plant Merchant Certification Under Pennsylvania's Plant Pest Act nursery stock is defined as: All trees, shrubs, brambles, woody vines, woody florist stock, herbaceous perennials, vegetable plants, bedding and other annual herbaceous plants, their roots, cuttings, grafts, scions, buds, fruit pits, seeds and their parts for propagation, except bulbs, field crop seeds, vegetable seeds, flower seeds, regardless of where the material may have been grown or is growing.
Persons engaged primarily as growers of nursery stock are considered nurseries. This definition includes many Pennsylvania greenhouse operations, in addition to traditional nurseries.
Persons that are engaged in buying and selling nursery stock, but are not primarily growers, are considered nursery dealers. It is within this diverse group of nursery dealers that most of the confusion over certification requirements has arisen. Nursery dealers include landscape contractors, chain stores, garden centers, plant distributors, mail order firms, collectors, conservation districts conducting plant sales and any other individual who receives plants for the purposes of reselling or reshipping. By applying for certification, a nursery dealer verifies that he will buy and sell only plants that have been inspected and certified. A certificate of inspection must always accompany all wholesale lots or out-of-state shipments.
The process for becoming certified as a new nursery, nursery dealer or greenhouse is initiated either by the individual requesting certification and completing and submitting the application for registration and $40.00 registration fee or is initiated by one of our field inspectors or supervisors.
Nursery stock offered for sale is subject to inspection for injurious plant pests. If an inspection reveals harmful insects or plant diseases, stop-sale orders may be issued. Samples are frequently submitted to one of the Bureau of Plant Industry laboratories in Harrisburg for diagnosis. If practical controls exist, a recommendation is made. Controls range from biological agents, chemical agents, and cultural practices to the destruction of plants in some cases.
Once the establishment is registered, an account is established within PDA's PAPlants licensing system and the individual is issued a PIN to access the on-line account. An application for renewal will automatically be sent each year, usually in early October.
Every state in the United States has a nursery inspection and certification program. However, not all states are involved in the inspection of greenhouse crops. More than 40 states have a fee for certification that varies from a few dollars to over $1,000. Pennsylvania's annual $40 fee is the result of a bill passed by the legislature as Act 67 of 1990 which established fees for some 440 licenses and permits statewide. Funds collected under this bill have been used to create a special restricted account called the Plant Pest Management Account to be used to improve and enhance plant inspection and certification programs in Pennsylvania. This is a direct benefit to the state's horticulture industry.
__________________ Zone 7
Celeste, White Marseilles, Beer's Black, Green Greek, White Italy one unknown, Chicago hardy, White Naples, Portuguese Black, Italian Honey.Black Bethleham, Sal's C, Several unknowns.
Looking for dark sweet types from Azores and southern Spain (figs, not women), 2014 goal is to acquire Kathleen Black
JackHNVA
Registered:1352380899 Posts: 519
Posted 1355487836
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#18
As said all states have there own requirements: http://www.state.nj.us/agriculture/divisions/pi/reg/nursery.html My family's greenhouses are in MA and there is a lincense and annual inspection process. And do not forgot the business taxes!
__________________ Zone 7
Celeste, White Marseilles, Beer's Black, Green Greek, White Italy one unknown, Chicago hardy, White Naples, Portuguese Black, Italian Honey.Black Bethleham, Sal's C, Several unknowns.
Looking for dark sweet types from Azores and southern Spain (figs, not women), 2014 goal is to acquire Kathleen Black
jtp
Registered:1271516015 Posts: 980
Posted 1355489230
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#19
Oh, the intrigue! If we are all wrong, I don't want to be right. Hmmm, I wonder what fig prison is like ...
bullet08
Registered:1284496248 Posts: 6,920
Posted 1355490290
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#20
i spent a night in drunk tank once. they don't have fig trees in there.
__________________ Pete Durham, NC Zone 7b "don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher ***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. ***** ***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
JackHNVA
Registered:1352380899 Posts: 519
Posted 1355493658
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#21
Well the intent is to prevent insects and diseases spreading, and protecting patented plant stock but the tax man is involved in this also so.....I am curious if the eBay cuttings sales are being monitored, I know of no one being questioned over it?
__________________ Zone 7
Celeste, White Marseilles, Beer's Black, Green Greek, White Italy one unknown, Chicago hardy, White Naples, Portuguese Black, Italian Honey.Black Bethleham, Sal's C, Several unknowns.
Looking for dark sweet types from Azores and southern Spain (figs, not women), 2014 goal is to acquire Kathleen Black
HarveyC
Registered:1212433117 Posts: 3,294
Posted 1355506134
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#22
Jack, yes, eBay sales are monitored, though I don't think they are anywhere close to having adequate staff to check them all. I mentioned in another post two weeks ago how I had a surprise visit by some USDA department I had never heard of before and they question me about the origin of the chestnut trees I'm growing (all was okay). They told me that their unit out of Colorado monitors eBay sales. A guy I know in Florida wrote about three years ago that he had bought some palm seeds on eBay and some time later he had a visited by some uniformed officials that scared the heck out of him. It might have been a CITES violation which is regulated by fish and game officials. I mentioned this before, http://www.nationalplantboard.org has a good summary of regulations for each state. It's what my ag officials refer to when I go in to have a phyto prepared for plants I'm shipping. I just paid my nursery license renewal of $150. Many states are much less but have fewer pests they are having to trap/monitor. I am in a light brown apple moth quarantine zone (just a leaf roller pest that I've been told is probably going to become unregulated since damage is of little significance) so they trap for that and my chestnut trees are sample for Sudden Oak Death (a Phytopthora disease).
__________________Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14
http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics
JackHNVA
Registered:1352380899 Posts: 519
Posted 1355510684
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#23
My sister took over the family nurseries and she complains of the increased costs
__________________ Zone 7
Celeste, White Marseilles, Beer's Black, Green Greek, White Italy one unknown, Chicago hardy, White Naples, Portuguese Black, Italian Honey.Black Bethleham, Sal's C, Several unknowns.
Looking for dark sweet types from Azores and southern Spain (figs, not women), 2014 goal is to acquire Kathleen Black
HarveyC
Registered:1212433117 Posts: 3,294
Posted 1355511605
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#24
Jon chuckled yesterday because of all the stickers I had on the package I sent him. My cost isn't very high, but a big time consumption of time and I see a lot of government waste (i.e., 3 people come in 2 cars to gather leaf samples of chestnut, etc. for Sudden Oak Death).
__________________Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14
http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics
musillid
Registered:1327758167 Posts: 1,507
Posted 1355539015
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#25
Phrag. kovachii was legally introduced by one or two growers a few years ago. You can now purchase it legally, but it's hybrids are stronger, better shaped and last longer. Maggie, You hit it. Most states regulate plant sales through their department of agriculture. Most don't care if you ship out of state, but most also care if you ship into their state from the outside.
__________________ Dale
non compost mentis in Zone 6a
DesertDance
Registered:1247674606 Posts: 4,518
Posted 1355547576
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#26
I don't think flies or worms or snakes or coyotes know borders! Don't we all live in the same country? This is sort of silly, but for those who depend on agriculture for their living, it's serious! Not sure of the answer because I am a wild child, but I do use serious pesticides! Nothing organic for us! We will NOT put at risk our agricultural community and their crops. We use what they use, and it aint organic! Suzi
__________________ Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!" Wish List: I wish all of you happy fig collecting! My wishes have been fulfilled!
tmc2009
Registered:1305513080 Posts: 854
Posted 1355600313
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#27
Here in Massachusetts we are finally going to see and end to tax free sales on Amazon. I've always thought there seems to be a unique loophole that Ebay provides when you see all the plant material being sold by everyone, garden hobbyists and licensed nurseries alike. We are under the radar now but I think it is just a matter of time before some bureaucrat takes notice and puts pressure on ebay to end this market opportunity. I don't know if its a conspiracy theory but I've read some stories about legislation to end small family farm and backyard garden under the guise of food safety. Or they will allow it but add huge fees on such sales making them unprofitable.
__________________ Tom
Massachusetts Zone 6b
Grasa
Registered:1347083219 Posts: 1,819
Posted 1355605016
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#28
Recentely I helped a family relocating from WA to CA - the movers would not take any of their house plants, they try shipping them to themselves and were not able to. Doing by their books, they donated their 10 y.o. house trees.
__________________ Grasa
Seattle, WA
OttawanZ5
Registered:1192897779 Posts: 2,551
Posted 1355606341
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#29
Grasa It could be because they were moving to CA. A friend told me that if a family want to relocate from US to Canada then they can bring in (a certain number of) their house plants with them.
__________________Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
twobrothersgarden
Registered:1355136466 Posts: 332
Posted 1355803741
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#30
I did some reading on the cdfa website which lead me to a 2 pdf files stating that fig imports to California from Florida and PR are red(red or restricted) and can only enter CA with a certificate because of a Caribbean Fruit Fly. All other states are listed as green (green, subject to inspection). So there's that. I ordered fig trees from two Amazon growers Hirt's Garden and Larry's Orchids. Both sellers didn't have that "No shipping to CA" thing, so I just figured that the legal matter was in their hands. Larry's Orchids states that they grow their fig trees from Tissue Cultures, I figured I was in the green.
__________________Henry, Brawley, California, 9B YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/thetwobrothersgarden/videos?view=0 Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/two-brothers-2013
hoosierquilt
Registered:1349823353 Posts: 184
Posted 1355804389
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#31
When I moved from Maryland to California, our moving company informed me that in order to move the houseplants, they had to load them last, and subject them to any inspections when they crossed the California state line. Plus, I had to fill our CDFA forms for my plants. And, not just plants - anything that had been stored outside (lawn mowers, pots that had or had had soil in them). Then, once my items were delivered, I had a certain number of days to contact the CDFA and be willing to subject my plants and items to an inspection. I did all that by the book, and after speaking with the CDFA agent, they did not feel that what I brought deemed an in-person inspection, and all was cleared for entry into California, as I wasn't bringing anything into the state on the restricted list, plus I had washed out all my pots thoroughly, plus did a bleach rinse. He thanked me for being so thorough. I told him I was a Master Gardener and a nurse :-)
__________________ Patty S.
Vista, CA
USDA 10a/Sunset 23- "Best Weather in the USA"
HarveyC
Registered:1212433117 Posts: 3,294
Posted 1355807298
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#32
Many years ago my sister discovered a gypsy moth egg mass on some lawn furniture that was moved into California during one of those inspections and it was kind of a big deal. Of course, one can only guess how many things get brought in and not detected.
__________________Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14
http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics
noss
Registered:1244523274 Posts: 2,122
Posted 1355811993
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#33
Florida has had a time of it with citrus diseases/pests. Last year, I was able to order some Honey Bells from Florida, but when I went to order them from Florida this year, the company couldn't ship them to Louisiana. LA is a citrus grower. I was able to buy Honey Bells from out West, though, so I won't miss them. I got them from both sides of the country last year and liked the Western Honeybells better, anyway. Maybe people ought to have more respect for some restricitons than they do. Pests and diseases could decimate crops and trees and that would be a really bad thing. noss
__________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.