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bullet08

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
so i did root pruning yesterday. first time ever. one thing i noticed was how broken down the soil was. this will cause few issues. water not reaching to all roots, and if water gets to the roots, it will not let it drain easily. and also it will prevent air getting to the root. and the soil is less than 2 yrs old.

as far as being root bound, i didn't see any specific issue. i think 10 gal tub should give good 3-4 yrs without roots getting bound, if not more. unless this was due to the fact that roots were having issue going though the broken down soil, but i don't think that was the issue. there were plenty of roots circling near the edge of the container.

so the question is, is it good enough just poking holes into the soil to get air and water to the root. or it is necessary to change the type of soil being used.

there used to be a big discussion about type of soil mix being used. al used to prefer gritty mix and some members use them. they won't break down as easy providing long term water drain/retention, and air. but few have found that this might not be easy to implement for few reasons. not being able to find the material near their area, not liking the weight, or whatever.

i have been using modified 5:1:1 mix. which is pine bark fine:perlite:peat moss. when i cut into the soil yesterday, i didn't see any pine bark fines. everything has broken down to the point it was just one compacted brown mess.

so what is the solution? root pruning will cut the old roots and remove the soil, about 1/3 of the root ball. but will that be enough? how about the 2/3 or the soil/root that's still in the container? they will still have an issue with water/air. i can poke holes with spikes to provide water/air, almost monthly.

i guess best option is to start with "gritty soil" that won't break down to start with. but what if that's not possible?
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
Dieseler

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Pete i cannot speak on the Tapla mix .

Faster the plant grows the faster a smaller container fills with roots.

A decent growing fig plant can fill a 10g pot in 2 years and start its decline and should be rootpruned before 3rd season as a general rule.

Its not good to let peat mix get to dry for it will repel water and not let it penetrate, if plant is rootbound as well this just compounds the issue and the overall health of plant starts its decline.

With ours in 20+ containers once rootpruned and canopy pruned to match the upcoming season produces less figs, the 2nd season it does very well the 3rd season it's at height of production.
Then the next season the process of rootpruning starts all over again.

Thats if one wants to keep the fig plants in good shape .
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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
martin,

i guess i should get busy and start root pruning properly every 3 yrs. but it was only second year those trees have been in the 10 gal. roots were not bound. it's just soil break down that was causing the issue.

i need to think about this and start coming up with better soil mix.
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Pete
Durham, NC
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"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Pete, I noticed that if I take one of those long screw driver weed poppers and jam it down in the soil and wiggle it around helps.  I have to do that about 4 times per pot.  UPM keeps soil very loose and is never a problem but squirrles love it and will keep coming back to the same pot digging and digging planting seeds.  Martin is also correct.  If the soil gets too dry its not going to feed water to the roots.  I had a problem with drain holes getting completely clogged which is why I started converting my pots to self watering.  I wanted to convert all my pots to self watering but its kinda hard to do with you have over 400 pots.  So, this year, I will convert 100 to self watering.  Like Bass said in another thread, converting pots to self water is very time consuming and it truly is. There is so much prep work involved.  But its best to just do now vs wish I had in a middle of a season.
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Dennis
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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
I'm using the same mix. I noticed the same thing this year when I was up potting. The bark seemed to break down quick. I'm also getting into the larger pots with my figs. I had a few in 10ish gallon pots last year. Their first year in that size they were up potted into them at some point last summer. They grew well, but when I checked the pots this year the pots seemed pretty full of roots. I don't know how happy they would have been this year staying in that pot, but I have seen larger trees in the same size pot. Maybe I'm just overly cautious. I am putting many trees in 15 an 25 gallon pots this year. I hope they are ok for a few seasons because I can't do this every year, lol.
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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Dennis, do you add anything to UPM? I am trying it straight
out of the bag.
snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Nope!  Straight out of the bag.  I need to go buy a few bags.  I've decided to only use it in the future on rare trees or up potting cuttings.  UPM is some amaziing stuff.  It's so light, airy and fluffy.  I love it!  Just wish it was 4 bucks a bag but it is cheaper than MG.  If I use MG or other potting mix, I always add a bucket of large perlite, a bucket of black cow, a bucket of mushoom compost, a bucket of water saver (pine bark fines) and lime.
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Dennis
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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Pete
What does broken down soil look like?  Is it a visual thing or a performance thing, like water retention, or no nutrients (I don't know how to tell that either), compaction?

Thx
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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Dennis, me too since Rafed recommended it. I just up potted 22 and using it and I
love the texture. Never seen any other quiet like it. I do have to get a friend in the
nursery business to order it for me. None to be found around here.
bullet08

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
danny,

the pine bark and perlite are all broken down physically into tiny fine grained pieces. they no longer retain their orignal shape. they were compacted and does not allow aeration. this prevents water/air from getting to the roots. it looks like compressed bale of peat moss.
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
noss

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
I was not fast enough in getting my older trees root-pruned and three of them were suffering, so I bought an auger and Mike drilled all kinds of holes into the rootballs and they came alive.  The pots were light and the water just ran out of the holes in the pots, but now, the pots are heavy and are holding water.  I don't think they would have made it through this year if we hadn't drilled holes into the roots.  Now the food and water can get in to feed the trees and the trees have sprouted out and are looking better each day.

noss
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DWD2

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Pete, You might consider trying a media mix that uses coconut husk chips (CHC) instead of bark. There a number of reasons that pine or fir bark based media are not my favorites. Short life span is one. I have citrus trees that have been in the same CHC based media for over 3 years and have not experienced broken-down media as yet. I get my CHC from the Crystal Company in St. Louis.
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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
DWD2,

never used CHC before. do they retain water? if so how well do they retain them compare to pine bark? changing the soil mix for new trees won't be too much of an issue. but for the older trees, i think that's going to be major pain.
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
elin

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Hi Pete

i use compost to aerate the soil and retain water.

general nursery soil soil dont have much organic material so....

since i started to use compost the soil is healthy and contains alot of snails and worms which are good.

i dont know about SIPS but i think it helps alot with all the issues we poted figs are suffering.....

maybe ill make a commitment to it next year.
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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
I reuse my soil mixes when I pot up but i dry it (sun, spread out) and shake it through a window screen to get the really fine material out. Going to also start doing that with my perlite. It's that little stuff I find does me in with moisture retention. I also pre moisten my soil when potting up and do the "Diesler Tip" (like the Harlem Shake for watering figs) 45 degree pot tip post watering to make sure it is not soggy. 100% convinced this helps my not drown any plants. I'm moving in June but when settled in I'd like to explore drip irrigation with rain water.
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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
i regularly add lime to the soil. Lime is said to losen up compacted ssoil. Besides, lime is alkaline which is what figs like.
Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
I guess everyone else knows this but what is "UPM"?  Is it a type of pro-mix?
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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Rewton, UPM is Fertilome Ultimate Potting Mix and it is awesome. It is not carried by ANY big box stores only independents. 
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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
I use the UPM and add about 25% more perlite to it and about a 1/4 cup garden lime to a gallon of mix.......great stuff.....
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bullet08

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
can't find UPM around here. either i'm looking at wrong place, or they are not getting to this part of NC. besides, they are little expensive just looking at online price. i'm trying to see if i can get coconut husk chip. i'm thinking maybe 4:1:1 of CHC:perlite:peat moss might be a good idea. or sub the perlite with sand. but that would add weight... readying about CHC, it holds good amount of water it seems but will act like pine bark. 

while going through the garage, found 12" screw drive i used to use while working on my truck. this thing goes through the soil rather easy. been busy poking holes into the 10 gals. this will have to do for awhile until i got my soil mix figured out. 

i might have to get some BT just to test soil mix. 
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
newnandawg

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Pete, do you have any independent nurseries or a hydroponic store that can order UPM for you. I pay $14.99 for 50 dry quarts.
bullet08

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
50 dry quarts comes little over 1.5 cu ft. $15 is about 4 times what i pay for the 1.5 cu ft of nature's helper. even with perlite and peat moss figured into the price. that's steep. i mean, i get what i paid for, quicker break down in soil media. i'm trying to figure out low cost soil mix that will get the job done. the soil mix i use works great for about 1.5 yrs, almost 2 seasons. but then they break down and start compacting. 

to loosen up, i'll have to poke holes into the soil. not much of an issue. with 12" screw driver, it wasn't all that hard. but it will compact soon. i'm sure in month or two, all the air way will close again. which still isn't much of an issue, if i make sure to aerate before the trees awake in spring, and make sure i do that every month or so. with only handful of trees in 10 gal and for almost 2 yrs, it wasn't much of a work. but it will become a chore once the number start growing. 
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
omotm

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Pete,

Is coconut husk chip the same as coir or are they two completely different animals?
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bullet08

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
steve, 

i'm not sure. i never used coir, nor chips before. i think they are both by product of coconut shell. maybe when they say coil, it's more of the hairy stuff, and the chips are the actual shells. i know the coil is sometimes sold in pet store in compressed puck that will expand once opened. i heard they can absorb a lot of water. 
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
DWD2

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Pete, Long day. I will get a more detailed post out later today or Sunday. CHC and coir are different. CHC are chunks of a chopped-up coconut husk. Coir is the dust that results from processing the husk for long fibers of the husk. 
DWD2

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Pete, Potting mixes are actually a really big subject. Every component has its own plus and minuses both on its own & in combination with other components. I am not a fan of the 5-1-1 media, particularly for trees. I do not like how the water management changes over time. The top layer will dry out if you are not very careful in my experience, which really changes the dynamic of the container. Also, I prefer to grow organically which I find is more of a challenge in 5-1-1 too. My preferences aside, one can use this media and the gritty mix with great success IF properly managed.

In researching growing media, I came across people using coconut husk chips (CHC) for citrus. It is widely used by people growing orchids. The coconut is a pretty interesting entity with properties that are great for potting mixes. If you think about it, coconuts can fall in the ocean and float thousands of miles in the ocean without sinking or breaking down. Yet, if you pluck one out of the water after it has been in there any length of time, it is decidedly waterlogged. The breakdown of the coconut husk is resisted by very high levels of lignin in the husk. The pore structure of the husk is such that it can retain high volumes of both air AND water. I am attaching a discussion of CHC that essentially describes my experiences using CHC. I have apricot and citrus trees in CHC based media going 4 years without breakdown. I have had to root prune and add more media, but the old stuff, which is deeply entwined with roots, is holding up well so far. With a 5-1-1 type, I'd have changed 3 or 4 times.

CHC and coir are different materials. CHC is just chopped up coconut husks. Coir, or more correctly coir dust, is the particles left over after the long coir fibers are extracted from the coconut husk. Coir is being widely used as a peat moss substitute with great results. Coir has good CEC and, like CHC, a high lignin content. So, it is also slow to breakdown. I have used a bunch of CHC mix variations. Right now I am doing 75% CHC, 10% coir, 10% Sunland Potting Mix and 5% worm castings. There is nothing magic about those percentages. I get my media mixes tested to make sure they fall in the ranges of the HortScience paper I am attaching. Yeah, I know, I'm an anal data junkie. I know there are people who report growing in straight CHC or 80 to 90% CHC plus 10 to 20% coir to good effect. If you go with a CHC based mix, your water management will be different. You will use somewhat less water. You may have to change your fertilization regime a bit as this mix holds nutrients better in my experience than bark + peat moss based medias. You can monitor the EC of your flow through to test that. Since I grow organically, I incorporate nutrition in the mix and then top dress after that. Two other things. I do not do the epsom salt soak discussed in the attached PDF about CHC. I do wash in a similar manner to what he describes. I get my CHC and coir from Crystal Company in St. Louis too.

I hope this helps! Happy to try to answer any questions.

Good luck with your mixes!

 
Attached Files
pdf AnTec_Laboratory_(2004)_-_Use_Of_Coconut_Husk_Chips_for_Potting_Medium.pdf (350.66 KB, 29 views)
pdf HortTech_15;_747_(Health_Substrates_Need_Physicals).pdf (134.14 KB, 17 views)
Chivas

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
I have mixed chc with coir roughly that same percent as mentioned above and I mix that 50 - 50 with composted sheep manure, the trees grow fast and so do the roots, so far it has worked well, heavy but not bad at all.  Best part is it holds moisture a bit better than peat, although it can be difficult to fully wet it again, so with my mix it works best to use drip irrigation, which in the height of summer means 3 times per day or 1.5 litres per dripper (roughly 3 litres of water per 18 gallon tub or 6 litres for 30 gallon tub per day) That worked for me last year anyways for what it's worth.
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
I was going to say use coir in replacement of peatmoss (this topic has already been brought up). I have been using 50% coir 50% pine bark mix with good results, I use special containers with this mix like superoots or fabric though. I have not tried the CHC yet, but if its anything like the great results of coir I will be using them soon.
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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
main reason why i stayed away from coir is due to lot of stuff i heard while prepping for the poison dart frogs number of yrs ago. there were few who were using coir as substrate, and i heard they will having lot of issues with gnats. not sure what the cause was, but since hearing that, i didn't even bother thinking about coir. 
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
DWD2, how pricey are the CHC and coir? Can you tell how much you paid getting them from Crystal Company in St. Louis?
Also, what size do you use?
I see they sell several different ones:
fiber, chips fines 3 mm to 8mm, chips small 6 mm to 10 mm, chips med 10 mm to 14 mm,chips large 14 mm to 20 mm. 
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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
DWD2,

Thanks for posting the two interesting papers.  Have you ever tried your CHC/coir/potting mix/worm castings mix in a SWC?
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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
greenfig, A bale of small cut (1/8" to 1/4") is $55 which includes shipping. The 14.3 lbs Gro-Brick Coir Block is $20 including shipping.

omotm, I do not use SWCs. I use drip irrigation and grow in air-root-pruning pots from Rootmaker.
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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
DWD2,

That's a good price on the coir.  I just bought some from Amazon (5kg for $23.92).

I assume since you gave a price for small cut CHC that is the size you use?
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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
Steve, Yes, I use the small size. I have used the medium, but switched to the small a couple of years ago when they were briefly out of medium. I saw no obvious difference in performance, but never did a side-by-side comparison. All three sizes they sell are the same, $55 per bale. They also sell a smaller, 20 oz coir brick for $5. I know they sell smaller volumes of the CHC. You can email them (crystal@crystal-company.com) for their product list.
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Hydro stores sell the coir blocks for $10 for 5kg locally. Off ebay you can get it for $19 shipped.
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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Hi, this it's an interesting thread,I noticed something similar with my 5-1-1, the bark had seemed to collapse after 3 months, although I think my grade was too fine.
http://www.easyorchids.com/shop/details/336/9/hardware/orchidmate-s-5-8mm
DWD would this product be suitable for the chc?
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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Has anyone tried contacting Crystal Company by e-mail recently and received a response?  I used this address crystal@crystal-company.com and another posted on their website and never heard back.
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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
naikii, They look like they could be OK. However, I can not stress it enough, that you are really gambling, hoping for the best if you do not test the pH & Electrical Conductivity (EC) of any potting mix you create OR buy pre-mixed. Most CHC and coir dust is well washed these days, but that does not mean the bag or compressed block you bought was. Quality control in this industry is spotty at best. In retrospect. I should have kept a record of the out of spec mixes and components I have encountered over the past few years after I started checking using the pour through method. Bad stuff is not rare. You can also test a mix by trial and error, which is probably what most people do. Make a mix, put a young fig tree in it and see what happens over 3 or 4 weeks.

Good luck!
naikii

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Thanks DWD, I bought some in the end and mixed a bale of it with some of my leftover mix that seemed to have collapsed.. about 50/50 I'd guess, didn't do any tests, so it is a gamble all round,I will say though, the chc look great, seem to hold water well and plenty of space for air. The brand I bought is supposedly pre washed for salts and can be used straight up for orchids... so here's hoping
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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
I use a modified mixture. It is 1 part mini pine bark mulch, 2 parts perilite, 2 parts pine fines, 2 parts peat, 1 part old mixture (so far this has been old potting soil, Miracle Grow [before I knew any better] with not much perilite), and I add a small shot of lime.

So far I get good soil structure for at least at least a year with very minimal compression. I do mulch with the mini pine bark mulch on top at a depth of about 1-2 inches depending on the plant and the pot size. Not the best picture but you can see how it looks new and after a year.

New

After 1 year
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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
U should try coir instead of peat i use the 5 11 mix but with coir and add a bit of cow and mushroom compost too keep moisture,i learnt the hard way how figs need to be keep moist in summer just one day of heat figs will drop,try cuttings with just coir like members from Indonesia its very light and fluffy roots love them and breaks down slower than peat.
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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
actually, 50/50 potting soil and perlite has less issue with my 5:1:1. my 5:1:1 is more like 2.5:2.5:1:1 where the 2.5 are pine bark fine and compost. maybe the compost is causing the pine bark fines to break down quicker.
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
what would be a problem if i just use 50/50 perlite and peat moss?
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Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
thunderbird1956

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Posts: 29
Posted Reply with quote  #44 

I don't use coir because I have heard too many people talk about having high salt content in their coir and I'm lazy enough that I don't want to prewash the coir. Plus at least in this area the cost for peat is less than that of coir for the same volumetric size. Much of the Canadian peat harvested is now on a 25 year rotation. It has become a peat farm the same way there are tree farms. It may be a harvested monoculture but it is far from unsustainable the way that some people say.

The reason that the fines are used is they are a mid sized particle the peat will break down over time so the use of pine and peat is designed to give about 3 years of good sized particles before new larger particles should be reintroduced. You are looking to keep the soil loose so if you go with just the perlite and peat you would likely want a higher ratio of perlite to peat. GardenWeb has pages and pages on soil structure if you ever get board.

I also have found that my 2 inches of mulch really help with the heat, at least in the VA summers.
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Matt
Northern VA - zone 7a
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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
i use perlite and peat at 1:1 in my 1 gal container. it seem they keep pretty well, and easy to repot. and they are not very expensive around here. bale of canadian peat moss is around $20 and 40 lbs perlite is also around $20. that will do about 5-6 10 gal tubs. if i can find something that's not too heavy and can replace pine bark fine that would be great. 
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Pete
Durham, NC
Zone 7b

"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
nullzero

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Posts: 206
Posted Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
U should try coir instead of peat i use the 5 11 mix but with coir and add a bit of cow and mushroom compost too keep moisture,i learnt the hard way how figs need to be keep moist in summer just one day of heat figs will drop,try cuttings with just coir like members from Indonesia its very light and fluffy roots love them and breaks down slower than peat.


I use a similar mix minus the mushroom compost. Every plant that I have tried loves the mix.

Dark Portuguese in the mix for about 3 months,
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