Seedlings

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pitangadiego

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Posts: 5,447

Posted 1272772262	Reply with quote #1

Here are pix of the seedlings under my Panache tree. More important that the seedlings, is to see the hundreds/thousands of seeds which did not sprout, presumably uncaprified. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

Jules

Registered:1245417423
Posts: 16

Posted 1272869696	Reply with quote #2

Mother nature is amazing. Will you keep them? __________________ Austria Zone: 6b

pitangadiego

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Posted 1272948287	Reply with quote #3

Definitely going to keep some to play with. Quite a few will disappear as food for bugs, slugs, snails, sow bugs, earwigs, etc. but there should be enough to play with. I try and keep a dozen or so each year. I saved seeds from several figs last year, but haven't planted the seeds yet. I did plant some Turkish seeds I got on Ebay, and I see a couple little sprouts staring to show. Need to get my seeds planted soon. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

nelson20vt

Registered:1259864353
Posts: 1,847

Posted 1285017497	Reply with quote #4

Hey Jon, I have been searching for an answer for quite some time and cant seem to find anything on the net on this subject. A common type fig like Mission lets say if it gets caprified those seeds become fertile, would this increase the amound of seedlings that would be of the common type compared to seedlings that had smyrna type parentage? Or if one used a edible caprifig as the father and common type mother technically the odds should be even higher NO? I mean somebody must of thought this through at some point when doing hybrids. __________________ Mississauga, ON, Canada Z5B/6A

pitangadiego

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Posted 1285039015	Reply with quote #5

Someday I need to sort out all of the literature and see if there is a final answer on what happens with figs. In my limited experience, few of my seedlings have been Smyrna or San Pedro types. OI am not at all sure whether caprifigs (male) are common, Sp and Smyrna, or just the females (my suspicion). but then there is this from UC Davis re: persistent and no persistent caprifigs: Persistent Capri refers to fig that persist even when uninhabited by wasp vs. Caducous that drop when uninhabited. Persisted Caprifig is important for breeding as it segregated into persistent : Caducous in 1 : 1 proportion irrespective of fig (female parent) that is either persistent or Caducous. The Caducous caprifig produces 100% caduceus progeny irrespective the type of fig (female parent) used in crossing, which is useless. Fig Caprifig Progeny Caducous Caducous all caducous Caducous Persistent 1:1 Caducous:Persistent Persistent Caducous all caducous Persistent Persistent 1:1 Caducous:Persistent So, It never seems to get any easier. I am still, also, not clear, about where San Pedro types figure in all this, where they came from and how they interact when pollinated, do the pollinated brebas produce different offspring than the pollinated main crop? I'm getting a headache. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

eboone

Registered:1378418906
Posts: 1,100

Posted 1394118877	Reply with quote #6

Does anyone know where this info in Jon's last post here about fig breeding and persistant vs non-persistant caprifigs is from? __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

aphahn

Registered:1354927274
Posts: 321

Posted 1394120723	Reply with quote #7

Ed, that table is in advances in fruit breeding as well as posted at waynes world. http://waynesword.palomar.edu/arbimg10.htm __________________ Andy - Zone 6a Lat 39.9º N, Alt 5390' Westminster CO ⚘ Scion List

eboone

Registered:1378418906
Posts: 1,100

Posted 1394120985	Reply with quote #8

Thanks Andy - I guessed that you might be one who could answer! And I know I had seen it before. I spent an hour yesterday looking through links trying to find that. __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

SEGeo

Registered:1343244935
Posts: 517

Posted 1394185488	Reply with quote #9

Jon, Looking over the chart you posted: "Fig Caprifig Progeny Caducous Caducous all caducous Caducous Persistent 1:1 Caducous:Persistent Persistent Caducous all caducous Persistent Persistent 1:1 Caducous:Persistent" On is able to start seeing a genetic pattern inside the pairings themselves. While basic Ficus carcis or the wild ancestor of the common fig does not contain the gene for persistence the expected outcome is represented with 100% caduceus progeny. The tough part of these genetics comes in the mixing of the persistent gene and the sex of the parent tree. In my opinion this chart is not complete and there appears to be some mechanism sometimes referred to as a lethal gene that is blocking the production of the persistent gene from being past from a persistent female tree. One would normally expect Persistent x Persistent to produce 100% persistent progeny. However, observation 0f the cross of Caducous x Persistent and Persistent x Persistent create identical results. Crossing Persistent x Caducouc only results in Caducous. Resulting in persistent gene only being spread through mean of a caprifig. This will explain why breeding programs have had such difficult times producing new female plants that contain the persistent gene for there is more to the crossing than one originally thought. While inside conventional thinking the gene from a persistent female would pass and one would only need a single parent with this gene one really needs to focus upon the caprafig to impart the gene originally and then crossing the persistent female progeny back to caprafig variety identical to the original caprifig. Trouble originates in selection of F2 progeny as 50% will still be wild type and not carry the persistent gene. Having waled through and evaluated the outcomes from these crosses one can be for certain that the persistent gene is an automosal recessive allele and does contain a lethal factor on the side of female trees. The key now is knowing which caprafig carry the desired traits that are being imported along with the persistent gene. To do this one needs a proper list of caprifigs carrying the persistent gene to start from. __________________ Chris Fairchild Virginia Beach, Va. USDA Hardiness Zone 8a Graduate Student - Engineering and GeoScience *I assume all my figs carry FMV* Wish List:

bullet08

Registered:1284496248
Posts: 6,920

Posted 1394193547	Reply with quote #10

punnett square all over again.. hope that is gene is a simple one.. not like human blood type. __________________ Pete Durham, NC Zone 7b "don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher *** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. * * and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...***

jdsfrance

Registered:1376988473
Posts: 2,591

Posted 1394206097	Reply with quote #11

Hi SEGeo, Read this if you want : http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/fig-pollination-myth-kill-6717719?pid=1281180356#post1281180356 Have fun in explaining me the stuff ... So Male Figtree and Female Figtree go to bed and ... There was no male here - or at least no wasp to help them meet ! __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

jdsfrance

Registered:1376988473
Posts: 2,591

Posted 1394206190	Reply with quote #12

Hi pitangadiego, Do you have the wasp and caprifigs at that location ? __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

rcantor

Registered:1309799312
Posts: 5,724

Posted 1394208756	Reply with quote #13

Jon (Pitangadiego) does have the wasp. It's not a matter of which parent provides the persistent gene. A homozygous persistent embryo will die. Otherwise there would probably be nothing but fig plants covering the face of the Earth. The Waynesword site has all of this info. __________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.

HarveyC

Registered:1212433117
Posts: 3,294

Posted 1394217387	Reply with quote #14

Bob, I read the Waynesword site again (read it before) but a common fig is only possible when using a persistent caprifig. Are you claiming otherwise? The fig breeder I visited with explained this to me and I believe I saw this also at Wayesword with comments about the gene being lethal. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

rcantor

Registered:1309799312
Posts: 5,724

Posted 1394235962	Reply with quote #15

I agree with what you wrote. The lethality is not due to the identity of the parent donating the persistent gene but in the presence of two of them, in response to Chris' post. When the female parent donates the persistent gene to an embryo that didn't get one from the male, that plant can grow normally. It would be interesting if we could block or add back whatever makes the homozygous persistent figs abort and see what that would be like. __________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.

eboone

Registered:1378418906
Posts: 1,100

Posted 1394241566	Reply with quote #16

Bob, I don't think you have it exactly right. According to the Wayne's Word site linked above: "According to W.B. Storey (1975), there is a dominant mutant allele (P) for persistent syconia and ovule abortion. This allele is egg lethal so it can only be carried in the sperm. In other words, it cannot be passed on from a persistent female tree. " If it were as you described, the observed ratio of offspring for a persistent caprifig x persistent(common) fig would be 2/3 persistant (heterozygous persistent/'wild') and1/3 non-persistent (homozygous 'wild' or non-persistent ) as only 1/4 of the embryos would be aborted. The above description where all eggs containing only the persistent gene from the female die is consistent with the observed 1:1 ratio of persistent:non-persistentf offspring, where 1/2 of the potential seeds do not develop due to the lethal P gene ( to the developing egg) from the mother. __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

rcantor

Registered:1309799312
Posts: 5,724

Posted 1394242229	Reply with quote #17

Ed - You're right! __________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.

pitangadiego

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Registered:1188871011
Posts: 5,447

Posted 1394249325	Reply with quote #18

The secret is to plant lots of seeds, and keep the ones that produce something you want to eat. The goal of the breeding program at UCR was a fig that had all the characteristics of Calimyrna and that was common. That was a very small, narrow, focused target, and thus hard to hit, and, in fact, never reached. My target, in saving seedlings, is "tastes good", which is a much broader target and easier to achieve, and has been met with 4-5 different seedlings. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

eboone

Registered:1378418906
Posts: 1,100

Posted 1394251793	Reply with quote #19

Jon - which of your seedling finds are common and which are Smyrna? I was thinking about requesting a couple of your babies but I was not sure of that vital detail. __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

pitangadiego

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Registered:1188871011
Posts: 5,447

Posted 1394259792	Reply with quote #20

Encanto Red appears to be a Smyrna type. Encanto is common. B Mad 001 and 002 appear to be common. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

bullet08

Registered:1284496248
Posts: 6,920

Posted 1394260036	Reply with quote #21

jon, isn't B Mad 002 one that has peach taste? __________________ Pete Durham, NC Zone 7b "don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher *** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. * * and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...***

jdsfrance

Registered:1376988473
Posts: 2,591

Posted 1394303665	Reply with quote #22

Playing with the panache is interesting as you could target more heavily stripped fruits and earlier ripping panache figs ... I'm playing with my ufti which is dark fig. __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

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