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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I get a weekly newspaper that includes a section with various reports from growers around the state.  Last week's paper (June 18, 2014) included a report from a commercial fig grower in Merced County (I'd guess farm location to be about 50 miles north of Fresno, perhaps in Chowchilla area).

I find it interesting on how this grower reports the absence of water as "bringing on" the crop. AgAlertFigGrowerReport20140618.jpg 

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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
no surprise there... in Mediterranean, they never water them.
HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Aaron, many things are done around the world out of convenience and tradition, even if it is not optimal.  Grapes are often dryland farmed but the vast majority of vineyards in California are irrigated and produce larger crops of high quality fruit, though of less intense flavor than dryland farmed grapes.  The complete absence of soil moisture would likely lead to very small figs so I'm sure there is a balance as to the appropriate soil moisture level.
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recomer20

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Interesting a bit counterintuitive. Nice read, Harvey.
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Harvey... one thing we all see in Mediterranean Fig Tree pictures is that they all have some typical semi-deserd (mosaic-like) moss growing on their barks... these moss are very flat in nature and varies in coloration according to the age... green/light green/yellow/orange/rust and dark brown...looks like mosaic of colors on the bark.
Ever guessed why they are on the tree barks?

because in Mediterranean, the moisture touches any surface and runs down, example: if you had some plastic patio furniture on the veranda at summer time, the sweat like water will run down and create pool of water on the floor.  Same thing with trees, the moisture will run down and go to the roots through the trunk. So, it's not that the trees don't get water at all, they don't get water from farmers. Mother nature find different ways to take care of it's babies.

Edit: here's a type of moss that grows on trees and rocks of Mediterranean.

Desert Moss.jpg 
DesertDance

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
This is a topic that has been and will be argued for decades.  Many growers say the best wine, the best coffee beans, and the best figs are dry farmed.  It does stand to reason because when a plant thinks it might die, it does it's best to throw all the best into it's fruit (fruit is the natural mode of reproduction).  I doubt a fig tree knows that it's cuttings will grow, or the same with grapevines.  Many growers withhold water during non-drought times to fool the plant into thinking it better put all it's energy into making fruit.

Also commercial growers have a different slant on things than hobby growers.  There is one winery in Australia that withholds water till the vines droop, then they water until the vines perk up, and then withhold again.  This makes some very sweet grapes, and the sweeter the grape the better the wine.  With figs, because they dry them, they probably want the figs rich, not watery. 

I realized that it needs to be said that commercial growers grow IN GROUND trees and plants.  When a tree is stuck in a pot, you can't expect it to live without water for sure. 

Suzi
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Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Aaron said:  "Edit: here's a type of moss that grows on trees and rocks of Mediterranean."

Those are not mosses, those are lichens. They are not related at all.

As for  "the sweat like water will run down and create pool of water on the floor.  Same thing with trees, the moisture will run down and go to the roots through the trunk. So, it's not that the trees don't get water at all, they don't get water from farmers. Mother nature find different ways to take care of it's babies."

Guess you better tell everyone in the California drought they need not worry about their gardens.



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Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
I find it interesting on how this grower reports the absence of water as "bringing on" the crop.


The same thing happened to our local Upick apricot orchard. The fruits were very early, and very small, but intense in flavor. The trees are dry-farmed about 2 miles from the ocean in a clay soil. If we don't get rain the next rainy season (the coming winter), a good number of them probably will die or be severely damaged. The trees frankly did not look very good this year - many with sparse foliage, and wilted already.
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Most fruits that are dry-farmed have more intense flavors because the fruits are smaller and sugars and other compounds are more concentrated.  That is not the same thing as the absence of water triggering fruit production.  In our dry Central Valley climate most fruit trees would drop their crop before maturity if they were not irrigated.  Most figs in the Central Valley are irrigated but I don't really know how much.  I know that some figs in the Middle East are also irrigated (some in Israel that I know of for sure).
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Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Most fruits that are dry-farmed have more intense flavors because the fruits are smaller and sugars and other compounds are more concentrated.  That is not the same thing as the absence of water triggering fruit production.  In our dry Central Valley climate most fruit trees would drop their crop before maturity if they were not irrigated.  Most figs in the Central Valley are irrigated but I don't really know how much.  I know that some figs in the Middle East are also irrigated (some in Israel that I know of for sure).


Sure, dry farming gives a much greater range of outcome. I've seen their apricots be large, juicy, and later in wet years, and small and dry as this year, and everything in between. With dry farming there is no control of the outcome - it's whatever nature dishes out. In fact, I'm surprised they had a crop at all in this drought. It was a large crop, but the fruits were tiny.

You are suggesting that you can use water in commercial orchards to manipulate both quality and when figs ripen? Makes sense. I prefer to not water my in-ground (non-fig) trees when fruit reaches a certain size so they will have more intense flavor, less splitting or rot. No reason commercial growers can't do that too.
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Gina, I do believe withholding water can improve flavor.  I believe watching plant growth is a good signal for when water may be needed.  In our long growing season, I don't believe completely withholding water after spring would be a good idea because the crop season would be shortened since new figs continue to be produced on new growth.  In my own situation with a high water table, I don't think I'll be irrigating my new fig orchard once the trees are established (i.e, after the second year or so).

When this grower says that the lack of rain this past winter brought on the breba crop earlier perhaps it's an indication that the breba quit increasing in size and ripen earlier than if they continued with an ample supply of soil moisture.

I helped appraise a fig orchard for a real estate loan about 35 years ago but my memory of the cultural practices being used by that grower aren't very good.  I just recall a co-workers disgusting comment about figs that probably resulted in my shying away from them for a while.
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GeneDaniels

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Most fruits that are dry-farmed have more intense flavors because the fruits are smaller and sugars and other compounds are more concentrated.  That is not the same thing as the absence of water triggering fruit production.  In our dry Central Valley climate most fruit trees would drop their crop before maturity if they were not irrigated.  Most figs in the Central Valley are irrigated but I don't really know how much.  I know that some figs in the Middle East are also irrigated (some in Israel that I know of for sure).


Sure, dry farming gives a much greater range of outcome. I've seen their apricots be large, juicy, and later in wet years, and small and dry as this year, and everything in between. With dry farming there is no control of the outcome - it's whatever nature dishes out. In fact, I'm surprised they had a crop at all in this drought. It was a large crop, but the fruits were tiny.

You are suggesting that you can use water in commercial orchards to manipulate both quality and when figs ripen? Makes sense. I prefer to not water my in-ground (non-fig) trees when fruit reaches a certain size so they will have more intense flavor, less splitting or rot. No reason commercial growers can't do that too.


Gina, when do you stop watering? At what size?
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Gina, I was referring to moisture conditions in Mediterranean and not here. Maybe you should wear your other glasses while reading.

Just because your climate is called Mediterranean doesn't mean you are in Greek Islands or France or Spain, there is a lot of humidity after 8PM in Mediterranean, I mean when you walk outside your skin will be sticky...your hair will curl up.
Sorry if I ticked your pain down there!

and... i'm not sure but maybe I chose the wrong picture for the fig moss... who knows. But they look like that except they are all over the old trunks of the Fig trees.
Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneDaniels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Most fruits that are dry-farmed have more intense flavors because the fruits are smaller and sugars and other compounds are more concentrated.  That is not the same thing as the absence of water triggering fruit production.  In our dry Central Valley climate most fruit trees would drop their crop before maturity if they were not irrigated.  Most figs in the Central Valley are irrigated but I don't really know how much.  I know that some figs in the Middle East are also irrigated (some in Israel that I know of for sure).


Sure, dry farming gives a much greater range of outcome. I've seen their apricots be large, juicy, and later in wet years, and small and dry as this year, and everything in between. With dry farming there is no control of the outcome - it's whatever nature dishes out. In fact, I'm surprised they had a crop at all in this drought. It was a large crop, but the fruits were tiny.

You are suggesting that you can use water in commercial orchards to manipulate both quality and when figs ripen? Makes sense. I prefer to not water my in-ground (non-fig) trees when fruit reaches a certain size so they will have more intense flavor, less splitting or rot. No reason commercial growers can't do that too.


Gina, when do you stop watering? At what size?



The fruits I have stopped watering to intensify the flavor are stone fruits such as peach, apricot, plum.. When I stop depends on the rain that previous winter. If it's been a wet year, I sometimes won't even water until after the fruit has been picked. If it's been dry and the trees seem stressed, I'll water, but before the developing fruits reach full green size. After they are of size, I won't water at all. But definitely will after harvest. It's not a cut and dried formula - I use my gardening instincts. :)

Right now almost all my figs are in containers. I suspect that figs in-ground would develop much better flavor than those grown in pots - simply because in pots they have to be watered regularly. It's almost impossible to create dry conditions for intensifying flavor without damaging or killing the tree. That's probably true for most container grown fruits.


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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
Aaron said:  "Edit: here's a type of moss that grows on trees and rocks of Mediterranean."

Those are not mosses, those are lichens. They are not related at all.

As for  "the sweat like water will run down and create pool of water on the floor.  Same thing with trees, the moisture will run down and go to the roots through the trunk. So, it's not that the trees don't get water at all, they don't get water from farmers. Mother nature find different ways to take care of it's babies."

Guess you better tell everyone in the California drought they need not worry about their gardens.


ok here what Gina is referring to, which is not what I am referring to.

Lichens are composite, symbiotic organisms made up from members of as many as three biological kingdoms . The lichen fungi cultivate partners that manufacture food by photosynthesis. Sometimes the partners are algae, other times cyanobacterium, formerly called blue-green algae. Some enterprising fungi exploit both at once.

Lichens..jpg  Lichens.jpg 

hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA


because in Mediterranean, the moisture touches any surface and runs down,

example: if you had some plastic patio furniture on the veranda at summer time,
the sweat like water will run down and create pool of water on the floor.  


Good to know that gravity exists in the Mediterranean.
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hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA


Just because your climate is called Mediterranean doesn't mean you are in
Greek Islands of France or Spain,


Can you tell us where we could find Greek island in the countries of France and Spain ?
Wouldn't they be French or Spanish islands if there were in those respective countries ?

Just to point out a geographical fact,
Neither France or Spain border with Greece or shares any body of water with Greece.


PS -  Moss or Lichens growing on tree is not a positive sign,
means the tree is very slow growing for this to happen,
and if you see it on a mature fig tree, means that tree is neglected
and producing a fraction of what it could with care.

Although Moss and Lichen do not directly harm the tree,
their appearance on a tree is indicative of a tree with problems.

What you ASSume as some kind of positive indication,
is actually the opposite.

Same with water running down a tree trunk,
that is NOT how a tree captures water to nourish itself either.

Just because you dream it up in your mind,
does not make it reality or fact.
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
OMG, the IDIOT is back from jail.
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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
I use water deficit to increase flavor and sweetness of stone fruit and grapes in my greenhouse. Since my growing season is about 300 days some irrigation is necessary. I'd call it deficit irrigation. Total water use is about 24-28 inches per year, less than 0.1 inch per day. I wet the soil profile in late fall and don't irrigate again until the trees show signs of water deficit. The first sign is "firing" of tips of vegetative shoots. This happens in late April or May after apricot harvest has started. From then until fall water application is one inch every 10-14 days.

Using this method results in fruit with mostly 20-34 brix. Lately I've been harvesting 24-34 brix Flavor Supreme pluot, Arctic Star nectarine, and Honey Blaze nectarine. It's some of the best fruit I've ever grown and I think about as good as fruit gets.
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Okay, let's keep comments constructive here, please.

Aaron, you have a problem with Gina's comparison of our California climate to the Mediterranean yet you used the Mediterranean's practice of not irrigating in your comment in post #2.  Sorry, but that doesn't really seem consistent.

In a video posted last year it showed that Pons planted a fig tree in a very deep hole, perhaps 5' deep and in diameter.  He watered it to help it become established and then gradually filled in the hole, resulting in a tree with a very deep root system that did not require irrigation.  With such a large reservoir from which to draw upon during the growing season I am not surprised that a mature tree established in this manner does not require irrigation.
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hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
OMG, the IDIOT is back from jail.

Don't be so hard on yourself.


The "information" you post,
which is nothing more than your opinion,
is 100% wrong, that is fact.

You really got no clue what you are talking about.
You make up facts consistently.
And when shown to be wrong, you act like an immature child.

What you call moss, is actually Lichens, as Gina correctly pointed out.
Then you attack her and make crude comments to her as well.

You claim the different colored mosses are because of age,
the mosses are lichen and they are different colored because of varieties,
not age.

You assume  moss/lichen on a tress in a positive indicator,
False again, means the tree is very slow growing and has a problem.

Many orchards in the Med are not watered and left to nature,
because they lack irrigation altogether, no pipes in the ground to transport the water.

You assume a fig tree's trunk is its water collecting method, wrong,
study a bit, learn, educate yourself,  you won't seem as foolish to others.

You ramble about islands and geography with no logic or reasoning to your comments.

Basically,  you talk out your @ss quite often.

 

 

 
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hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fignutty

Using this method results in fruit with mostly 20-34 brix. .


Do you know the height of the water table on your property ?

What are you getting 34 brix from ?
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
it's true that they are well established old trees and they probably have vary deep roots.
I was merely describing humidity levels and the positive effects ...perhaps that was/is the reason that increases survival levels in Mediterranean.
That's all Harvey... :)

Now what was her last comment in #15?  I have no idea!
hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC


I find it interesting on how this grower reports the absence of water as "bringing on" the crop.  


Just as stress shortens(accelerates)  a humans life
does the same for plants.

Think of girdling certain fruit trees as another example of this effect.

Although the crop is early and more flavorful,
the poundage is going to be lower than in a normal year.
Rarely get extra $ for flavor, but you do for early  :-)
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
LOL...I think you should cut down on the weed. Seriously JackASS
hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
Gina, I was referring to moisture conditions in Mediterranean and not here.
Maybe you should wear your other glasses while reading.

Just because your climate is called Mediterranean doesn't mean you are in Greek Islands or France or Spain, there is a lot of humidity after 8PM in Mediterranean.

I was merely describing humidity levels and the positive effects ...perhaps that was/is the reason that increases survival levels in Mediterranean.


Your hypothesis and subsequent comments state that higher humidity levels
in the Med are higher than California  and thus responsible for the success of trees in the Med.

AVERAGE YEARLY HUMIDITY
 Southern California  
    
67Long Beach  
71Los Angeles  
69San Diego  
71Santa Barbara  
76Santa Maria  
    
    
    
    
  

Aegean Islands

Average annual humidity
Place%
Limnos70
Milos68
Mytilini65
Naxos72
Rhodes (Rodos)66
Samos60

Crete
Annual relative humidity averages
Place%
Chania65
Heraklion63
Ierapetra66
Rethymno65
Sitia66
Tympaki64

Peloponnese

Average daily humidity
Place%
Astros62
Kalamata68
Kythira66
Methoni73
Pyrgela67
Tripoli63
Velo64



So, once again, a review of actual facts, weather data,
shows Aaron's hypothesis to be incorrect.

Average humidity in Southern CA is above 70%
Average humidity in Greek Islands is below 70%

So its not moss or lichens
or humidity levels either,
or ever present gravity that makes water drip down tree trunks and plastic chairs,

maybe the Greek God's have their hands involved.



or could be something simple as limestone.
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
OMG, seriously, you have your own party and enjoy it. 
I'm out of here!
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
If either of you start biting one another we'll transfer you to a soccer team!
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
well, I've seen him bite dirty Squid!
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Okay, let's keep comments constructive here, please.


Thanks for doing that Harvey,

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
In a video posted last year it showed that Pons planted a fig tree in a very deep hole, perhaps 5' deep and in diameter.  He watered it to help it become established and then gradually filled in the hole, resulting in a tree with a very deep root system that did not require irrigation.  With such a large reservoir from which to draw upon during the growing season I am not surprised that a mature tree established in this manner does not require irrigation.


One thing Montserrat Pons described during our visit (April 2010) is that the bottom of the deep hole is just above a damp clay layer, which along with the large reservoir, aids in making it possible to dry farm the fig trees (once they are established).
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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Paul, we need to schedule a trip to attend the fig festival in Mallorca!  How about 2015?
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hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
well, I've seen him bite dirty Squid!


Skin of a Humboldt squid caught in a remote area in the
Sea of Cortez,
is far cleaner than the skin of a fig harvested from the smog and polluted air of LA.

As a Greek, you should have a deep appreciation of Cephalopods.

:-)

No biting on my part,
just pointing out facts,
which might be painful for some to realize,
and could feel like a bite to them.
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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
Harvey,
Thanks for this very interesting thread.
I doubt I can use any of the practices involved as every single one of my 300+ fig trees is in a darn pot.
If I let them go without water for even a short period they drop leaves and figs and don't seem to prosper at all.

Part of this is obviously pot size as I'm asking my trees to grow very large in size compared to their root mass.

I ordered a brix meter tonight as I want to see what my sugar levels are like. I even paid extra postage as I waited too long to order and if the meter doesn't get here ASAP I'll miss getting a reading on my Florea brebas which will be ripe starting tomorrow.

I'm counting on the critters not yet being aware there are figs to steal as my defenses are not yet in place.
I'll be setting an electric fence and a number of scare devices this weekend.

Last year I was pretty successful keeping the figs for myself but this year I have a much bigger crop. A bigger crop means far more attention. I can almost hear the many different species I have to worry about licking their chops.
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
OK Jack!
Well, I don't think this extra conversing benefits this thread nor is fair to Harvey, because, initially I was drawn to the interesting nature of his post. But you, as usual, just walk into it with your messy paws and pollute everything. Must be the Salmonella in your system from biting the raw squid ( I can't believe I even remembered that disgusting picture). Anyway... Just don't hurt people out there when you drive your truck.
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
OK Jack!
Well, I don't think this extra conversing benefits this thread nor is fair to Harvey, because, initially I was drawn to the interesting nature of his post. But you, as usual, just walk into it with your messy paws and pollute everything. Must be the Salmonella in your system from biting the raw squid ( I can't believe I even remembered that disgusting picture). Anyway... Just don't hurt people out there when you drive your truck.


Dude, the only one spewing trash and insults is YOU.

You're not man enough to admit your wrong,
and attack me and another member when your mistakes are pointed out to you.

You're generally a very misinformed individual, with limited experience and knowledge,
but feel the need to provide expert commentary on subject you have no expertise or even
basic knowledge of.

Correcting false information is not polluting, its educating,
the pollution in this thread comes from YOUR misinformation and childish attitude in this conversation.

I see you continue with your misinformed opinions and comments,
so I will correct once again.
Squid does not have Salmonella bacteria, chicken carries that disease,
raw squid is eaten by hundreds of millions of people in this world.

I also drive a BOAT, not a truck, they are different,
one is used on the road and has wheels,
the other has no wheels and operates on the water.
My boat also costs more than your house, so save any additional
snide ignorant comments you are preparing to make.

Still batting 100% there dude,
you are consistently wrong with your comments and ASSumptions.
Do us a favor, go get lost in your fig forest for a while,  thanks.
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fignutty

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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryjack

Quote:
Originally Posted by fignutty

Using this method results in fruit with mostly 20-34 brix. .


Do you know the height of the water table on your property ?

What are you getting 34 brix from ?




I don't have a water table. It's a very well drained clay loam that is moderately droughty. I'd estimate total water holding capacity in the root zone of fruit trees at 6 inches maybe more depending on rooting depth. I apply about 7 inches to leach salts and rewet the soil profile in late October.

The easiest fruit to get 28-34 brix is sweet cherries. By the way refractometer scale only reads to 32 but can estimate to 34. Nectarine and pluots are 20-32 brix depending on degree of water deficit.

Usually a brix above about 30 indicates excessive water deficits. Fruit flavor can be greatly enhanced below 30 brix but may take on off flavors above 30. The refractometer is a great tool to monitior water deficit. Below 18 is too much water. Mid 20s is a great place for yield and eating quality, above 30 depending on the fruit may be too dry.

The refractometer is hard to use on figs because they can be too dry to express any liquid. My tongue tells me the good ones are 25+ brix, many probably 34+.
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Steve in Alpine TX 7b/8a
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paulandirene

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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Paul, we need to schedule a trip to attend the fig festival in Mallorca!  How about 2015?


Sounds amazing Harvey!


Seriously, Jack and Aaron, we might need to put you two in a corner of another room to duke it out. This stuff really doesn't add to the topic of conversation. Yes, we all have our opinions but this has gone beyond that.
GeneDaniels

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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
I agree, for the sake of the rest of the community, would you two keep your personal animosity to yourselves. This is not the place for swapping insults.
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Zone 7b (Central Arkansas) Seven trees in the ground: Hardy Chicago, Celeste(?), LSU gold, Italian Black, Southern Brown Turkey(?), Strawberry Verte, and Unk yellow.  Trees in pots: VdB, CdD, and Sicilian?
HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
This reminds me of the cultural practice of some farmers of what is termed "deficit irrigation".  This is primarily done to conserve water but there are benefits observed as well.  I have no personal experience with it but have scanned through many articles about it over the years (mostly in the same paper as post #1).  I may not be entirely correct in what I say here since it's not something I've used or paid very close attention to. Growers use "pressure bombs" (no explosives involved!) where leaf samples are taken and vacuum pressure is used to extract water from these leaves and the amount of vacuum needed is measured.  There are established figures for all of this to determine how much stress the tree is under.  I believe by around the end of June when almonds are already sized up pretty well the orchards will be given less water than they need to grow and the stress is closely monitored so as to not kill the tree.  By harvest time some of these orchards are dropping leaves even though it's only August and still the "growing season".  I'd think some similar practice could also be useful for commercial fig growers though, in reality, it doesn't really seem that commercial growers are trying to pick fruit at prime ripeness anyways since they don't transport well in this condition.

Another device used by large commercial growers is a neutron probe which makes very accurate measurements of soil moisture.  Growers usually hire a service to perform periodic measurements although I'm pretty sure very large growers have their own specially-trained staff that do this (I know of at least two growers in California with over 10,000 acres of almonds).

Steve, I believe careful moisture levels can even be maintained in pot culture but would probably require different watering methods.  For instance, if water is simply applied to the top of a pot (as I do for my younger potted trees), it's going to take a fairly large amount (perhaps 1/3 of pot volume) to moisten the entire area of soil since potting mixes typically use media with a high water-holding capacity (if sand was used instead, less water would be needed but then very frequent watering would be needed).  Some growers use sub-surface drip irrigation lines and I believe people growing in pots could also apply drip emitters in different areas of the pot in the soil so that moisture was more uniform and then moisture could be closely monitored and watering scheduled modified.

I don't believe any of this is really practical for any of us unless we're just really devoted to experimentation, etc.  I took quite a few soil science courses and one irrigation engineering course in college (many years ago!) and I believe that experience probably has increased my interest in this topic more than for most folks.

Oh...one more thing: some growers who use sub-surface drip irrigation also inject air into their lines so that soils are being moistened and aerated at the same time.  Some results have been very impressive.  This requires a very large air compressor!  This would not be very hard to do on a small scale, I believe.
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fignutty

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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
Harvey:

Thanks for getting the discussion back to horticulture!!

There is a new device being patented by Cornell that directly measures the water status of a tree and can be read and recorded in real time. The device is inserted into the trees trunk. It's similar to tire pressure monitors on modern cars. It could be used to control drip irrigation to maintain any desired level of water deficit.

Deficit irrigation has long been practiced in drought tolerant field crops like sorghum and cotton. There's no reason it can't be used in fruit crops where desired. It is very effective for nectarine, pluot, apricot, and grapes if one desires sweeter and more flavorful fruit.

I think the primary factor in play is that a water deficit in the plant causes it to adjust osmotic potential upwards in order to continue drawing water from the soil. This increases sugars in the fruit and reduces water.

I'm not sure how useful it would be in figs. For me it should help varieties like BT that are usually too watery. There is no subsitute for heat and sunshine, maybe just an aid.

Thank you for your thoughts about how to water figs in pots. I need to think more about self watering containers and such.
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Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Deficit irrigation has long been practiced in drought tolerant field crops like sorghum and cotton.


Come to think of it, I practice this when I grow tomatoes. (No summer rains, and little frost here) I plant very early and water well to get the plants established, then as little as possible later in the season to intensify the flavor - sometimes not for weeks at a time. I water when the plants show obvious stress. I also keep them well mulched. The fruits are exceptionally sweet and flavorful when grown this way. When I do water, I have soaker hoses run beneath the mulch.
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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
With figs trees having in mind; would water Deficit harm the tree in long term,(through dormancy and after) like stunting it's growth or increasing die backs or even decrease fruit production? Or with every spring, with hope of some rain, the tree will be restored.
fignutty

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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
Quote:
Deficit irrigation has long been practiced in drought tolerant field crops like sorghum and cotton.


Come to think of it, I practice this when I grow tomatoes. (No summer rains, and little frost here) I plant very early and water well to get the plants established, then as little as possible later in the season to intensify the flavor - sometimes not for weeks at a time. I water when the plants show obvious stress. I also keep them well mulched. The fruits are exceptionally sweet and flavorful when grown this way. When I do water, I have soaker hoses run beneath the mulch.


Great comments!! There are smaller growers in CA catching on to deficit irrigation in many crops. Tomatoes are a great example. And tomatoes have something in common with nectarine, plums, pluots, and grapes; they are all fuzz free and smooth skinned. Maybe the lack of fuzz increases water loss thru the skin thereby increasing sugars. I haven't been as successful increasing brix of peach as much as nectarines, a fuzzless peach.
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Steve in Alpine TX 7b/8a
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fignutty

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Posted Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
With figs trees having in mind; would water Deficit harm the tree in long term,(through dormancy and after) like stunting it's growth or increasing die backs or even decrease fruit production? Or with every spring, with hope of some rain, the tree will be restored.


Figs are native to climates where it doesn't rain all summer, just like LA and most of CA. It's just a matter of how much water the soil holds from winter rains. If the soil is poor, rains lacking, or summer too long, deficit irrigation is the means to bridge the gap.

Think of all the figs in LA with no water all summer. Some must be that way. They survive fine if well established on deep soil.
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Steve in Alpine TX 7b/8a
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drphil69

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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryjack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA


because in Mediterranean, the moisture touches any surface and runs down,

example: if you had some plastic patio furniture on the veranda at summer time,
the sweat like water will run down and create pool of water on the floor.  


Good to know that gravity exists in the Mediterranean.



ROTFL... I was thinking the same thing...
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Phil - Zone 7A - Newark, DE Newbie fig lover just trying to learn.
Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #46 
OK, by chance I found a great example of what type of moss typically grown on fig trees in Mediterranean...
This picture is of JH Adriatic mother tree...I am using just for an example...

JH Adriatic Origina Mother Tree.jpg 


hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #47 
Those are leaves Aaron!?!? I know you are not talking about those lichens again, because that would be really awkward...

I shared this video some time ago but it seems relevant, I have no idea how much the methods would help since my problem is usually too much water ;)
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #48 
no, I just felt I didn't show the correct picture when I was talking about air Moisture and the effects on surface growth...it's just curiosity ... nothing wrong with continuous learning...

great video.
hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fignutty

.

The easiest fruit to get 28-34 brix is sweet cherries. By the way refractometer scale only reads to 32 but can estimate to 34. Nectarine and pluots are 20-32 brix depending on degree of water deficit.

Usually a brix above about 30 indicates excessive water deficits. Fruit flavor can be greatly enhanced below 30 brix but may take on off flavors above 30. The refractometer is a great tool to monitior water deficit. Below 18 is too much water. Mid 20s is a great place for yield and eating quality, above 30 depending on the fruit may be too dry.

The refractometer is hard to use on figs because they can be too dry to express any liquid. My tongue tells me the good ones are 25+ brix, many probably 34+.


30+ brix is always impressive in fruits,
with the right acid ratio, it becomes world class.

Are you supplementing calcium before harvest ?
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hungryjack

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Posted Reply with quote  #50 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
OK, by chance I found a great example of what type of moss typically grown on fig trees in Mediterranean...
This picture is of JH Adriatic mother tree...I am using just for an example...

JH Adriatic Origina Mother Tree.jpg 



Those are LICHENS  not  Moss.

How about you go to Google,
type in the word  MOSS  then do a picture search.
Then do another search with the work LICHEN.

There is no reading involved, just look at the pictures,
even a 5 year old should be able to tell the difference between the two,
if you are having problems discerning the difference,
there is no shame in asking one of your children to explain the difference to you.

 
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