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FrozenJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
My Violette de Bordeaux baby tree decided to shrivel up and look like it's dead.  It happened during the course of one day: yesterday (7/26).  I'm not sure what happened.  Sunday morning (7/25) I applied some liquid miracle gro to all of my plants.  None of the others had any problems.

What could have caused this?  Will the plant survive?

The cutting is from UCDavis, rooted this spring.

The other plants are also rooted cuttings that have been growing under the same conditions.  (VDB on the left, Barnisotte in the middle, my unknown called "Jersey" on the right).

Joe

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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 

MG is not supposed to cause fertilizer burn if used as directed.
I may look that way though it never happened to me.
It also looks like the leaves got scorced by the sun and/or by lack of moisture.
Sometimes I loose young figs because the twig rots somewhere
between the roots and leaves. In that case, the first/sudden sign
is that the leaves just droop vertically down (mine were still in the shade).
Should one dare examine what is under the soil surface??
[E:  I would not, in your case the leaf stems are still rigid.]

If not already done so, put it in full shade and top-up the soil as much as you can and cover with vented dome.

What about your "jersey" fig? Two years ago, I bought a tiny fig from ebay,
and the seller called it "Jersey Fig" because it came from NJ.
Is this the same one?
[E2: I guess not! The one I had; the fruit/leaves looked similar to VdB,
though a member that it fruited for him assured that it is not a VdB.
Re-looking at your plant, the leaves look more similar to the HC type.]
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Posted Reply with quote  #3 

Hi Joe,
my best guess only a guess .
If it was fine up until you applied the MG then next day it looked like that im thinking it was the MG for some reason or another. Hope it was a very weak solution you gave that little guy.

I would put the stressed plant in full shade and hopefully it responds.
Some may say cut off the leaves i like to leave most on and just let plant drop them when its ready on its own time, thats just me its not right or wrong in my opinion.
Full shade may help it come back in time.

It really hurts when one loses a small hopeful plant at least me, so in short if it does not make it send me email i may be able to send some wood in dormant season.
Let us know the eventual outcome.
FrozenJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Gorgi & Martin,

Thanks for the feedback.  I just moved the plant to the shade now and gave it more water.  I hope that it lives.  It was a beautiful dark green plant before this.  Used regular strength miracle gro & water mixture.  Maybe that was a mistake.

Gorgi, the plant I have is different.  I did not realize that there was another tree called Jersey already in circulation.  This plant is a cutting from a tree that grew inground in Clifton, NJ unprotected.  I first came across this tree in the 1980's when I lived in the house where it grew. It was a heavy producer of figs.  Maybe I should rename it Joe's Jersey.  I am taking it with me to Arizona to see how it does.  I'm leaving a tree with someone in Butler, NJ and one with someone in Mass to see how it does elsewhere in the Northeast.

Joe
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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Ok so you did use full strength MG a no no on small plant like that.
You gave more water that may help flush it out some and i bet it comes back in time. Dont drown it though now with to much water young roots cant absorb it fast enough and will surely rot the root system,  the water just wont evaporate as fast in full shade, but plant needs the full shade.  ; )
Good luck to you.
gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
FJ,
It is a good practice to use 1/2 strenght MG for very young figs.

Also [same time while you were posting], I did some edit above [see E2:...].
The Jersey Fig (if I remember correctly) came from a more southern part of NJ.  
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Posted Reply with quote  #7 

I am just mentioning my opinion for others to make comment on it and only then for your consideration.
You have a multi-stem stressed plant. The leaves are gone and are not going to help the plant anyway. Will it not be better for the plant to concentrate its energy/nutrients on only one of the healthiest stems out of the three and have a better chance of plant survival?
I always had less success in the past with multi-stem cuttings survival after very healthy initial rooting.

Edit: Remove the saucer from the bottom until it gets new leaves so the soil will not stay soggy wet since there is less moisture loss in the shade without leaves.
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FrozenJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Ottawan,

Do you suggest I reduce the plant to one stem?  From the photo which one?

Joe
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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Martin, and the rest also, I discovered a way to dry out an over wet pot. When I went to CA a 4 weeks back I put some of my little not fully stable trees under a very heavy shading mulberry tree to protect them from the sun. Well it rain 4 out of the 8 days I was gone. Needless to say they were drowning. Here's how I managed to save them all. They were all in small 6 in pots so I put some floor dry (oil dry), the stuff that Dr Al uses in his mix, into a 1 gallon pot. I put the small pot on the floor dry in the large pot and then poured more around the smaller pot making sure that in came into contact with the mix in the smaller pots weather it has holes on the bottom or sides. The floor dry suck the extra water right out of the pot, and in 3 days it was back to normal. So perhaps flushing it out to get rid of the MG and then drying is out so it won't drown might work. It's worth a try.
"gene"
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FrozenJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Gene,

Are you suggesting that if I repot it to a larger pot the plant will live?

Joe
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Ottawan raises a good point and I agree that there could have been an imbalance
between the roots and leaves. But I would [NOT] break anything right now.
Most of the shrivelled leaves will soon fall down anyway.
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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Plants should be well watered and then left to stand for an hour or two before fertilizing, esp. small rooted cuttings. Then re-watered with MG at 1/2 strength or less. A little bit frequently is much better than a lot once in a while.

At this point, leave it alone. Keep it in the shade, keep it moist, and let things take their course. Anything else you do, repotting, pruning,or whatever will just introduce more stress. Patience is you friend at this point.
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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
No I wasn't suggesting repotting, but rather trying to flush some of the fertilizer out like Martin said by running lots of water thru the pot and then perhaps drying the soil to a correct level by using the floor dry to suck out the excess. Whatever you do I hope it works. May the fig gods be with you.
"gene"
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FrozenJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Jon,

Thanks for the tip.  Never knew that plants should be watered prior to fertilizing.

Joe
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OttawanZ5

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Yes Joe. I was suggesting to keep any one fresh looking stem so the plant energy will be used in taking care of one stem to bring it to good health rather than distributing the stored nutrients on all stems. If one stem survives then the plant survives.
That is my personal opinion though but you got other opinions from more seasoned fig growers. So the final choice is yours.
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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
No No Gene i did not say give more water .  ; )

Joe stated this
Gorgi & Martin,

Thanks for the feedback.  I just moved the plant to the shade now and gave it more water.
 
I said this after i read his statement above
Ok so you did use full strength MG a no no on small plant like that.
You gave more water that may help flush it out some and i bet it comes back in time.
 
In other words he gave it more water already , i would not suggest give more as its already stressed .
 
Regardless
its best now and like Jon and mention basically leave it alone dont fuss with it trying things at this point it may stress it out more and then BAM !
 
Dieseler <<<~~~ far from being real good with figs as i made many many mistakes along the way i just go by what i have tried to learned from them mistakes.
Man those mistakes hurts too cause in my climate a big mistake cost a whole years of growth sometimes like i did with my negretta few seasons back. 
pitangadiego

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Any plant is much more susceptible to burning from fertilizer if it is dehydrated. A dry plant will "rush" to rehydrate when you water it, but when you water it with fertilizer, it rushes to take up the water, but gets too much fertilizer in the process.

From Growing Tips :After the plants are successfully transitioned and evidencing new growth, I water appropriately. Once a week after I water them, I let them stand for an hour and then I re-water them with a half-strength solution of Miracle-Gro. In many instances, this will produce a 6-foot tree by the beginning of autumn.

More than likely the more hardened growth will survive after it completely defoliates, so you will almost be starting over with a cutting, except that it should still have roots. TLC and patience are the best approach.
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Man, this plant has-to/must survive!
On the other hand, no big deal, it can easly be replaced.
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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Very interesting.  I've never seen leaf shrivel like this.  It almost suggests hydraulic uptake problems, the leaves are curling and drying out.  It could just be that the plant has been persistently overwatered, and the stem (cambium around stem) rotted, breaking the link between roots and leaves.  The MG application could only be related in the sense that you added even more water to an already overwatered plant.
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FrozenJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 

Jason,

I don't think that the stem rotted.  I guess I would have to dig the plant up to know for sure and I'm not ready to do that yet.  I've been watering this plant like my others, every second day (except when it gets into the 90's and I water my plants daily).  And I pour out any excess water that collects in the dish.  I think my mistake was that I gave it full strength miracle gro when it was thirsty.  It is the smallest of my trees, so it must have been the most sensitive.  I'm not sure exactly how the fertilizer effected the plant in this way.

Joe
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pitangadiego

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Without leaves, the plant will use less water because of the loss of surface area which transpires the water.
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Posted Reply with quote  #22 

The discussion about over-fertilizing makes me wonder if I'm at risk for the same problem (after all, more is always better--right?). I've been using the powdered MG--can any of you experienced fig growers tell me how much of it I should add to a gallon of water for small, rooted cuttings (3-10 leaves)?
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Posted Reply with quote  #23 

What fertilizer product are you using, Ken?

Most of the fertilizers I use call for between a few drops and 1/4 teaspoon per gallon.  I do have one jug of Peter's liquid root stimulator that asks for a 1/4 capful per 2 gallons, which is about 1 teaspoon per gallon.  Primarily I use SUPERthrive on all of my young plants, fruits, veggies.  That's one of the "a few drops per gallon" stuff.

Granted, I'm not a "guru" or anything, but I would never mix more than 1/2 strength for new trees (1/2 amount recommended in the instructions), and I would probably start with 1/4 strength dilution if using a product like MiracleGro.


EDIT - I just realized that Peter's isn't made anymore... and I also wanted to add that Al (tapla) always recommends to use fertilizers with 3:1:2 ratio when feeding figs, since this seems to be something that rarely comes up when talking about fertilizers. 

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TucsonKen

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
I'm using the powdered Miracle-Gro (24-8-16). The instructions say use one tablespoon per gallon for "smaller outdoor gardens" or one-half teaspoon per gallon for "indoor plants", every 7-14 days. I had been using about half a teaspoon per gallon every couple of days. I think the plants are all looking pretty healthy, except for the mottling and leaf deformation I had attributed to FMV (who knows--maybe it's due to too much MG!). After reading people's comments I set all the figs out on the lawn this morning and flushed each pot with plain water, and then ran the sprinklers for 15 minutes in case too much MG had been building up in the soil. From here on I'd just like to make sure I'm not overdoing it or underdoing it.

I'll post a shot to show their state of growth.

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Ken you ask about how much you should use.
 I use the granular blue stuff , it comes with measure spoon the big end is tablespoon and that is for a 1 gallon of water.

Jason yes fertilizer ratio does not come up to much i guess and as some know it can cause long conversation on other forum.

I just have always used 3-1-2 miracle grow (24-8-16) from day one reason being cause it worked well on my flowers many years back before i grew figs so i use for figs . I cant say either way if its better than other types. I would use others though without hesitation if i could not get the Miracle grow though thats for sure in containers i feel the plants need some help.  I also dolomitic lime scratched in early spring and maybe once more during season.

The superthrive is very strong i use it sometimes mixed in with the Miracle grow water. Ive given ischia black it especially with a full dose of miracle grow but not notice any difference at all with this plant its a special plant all on its own but i enjoy it for some goofy reason maybe because its a challenge to get it to grow unlike the other plants.

At this time in season i have totally stopped the fertilizer on all plants , i just give them water now.
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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Ken, to answer one of your questions, 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons so use 1 1/2 teaspoons per gallon for 1/2 strength. Hope this helps.
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 

Thanks all, for the dosage info. Hopefully it will help those of us with less experience avoid the same problem Joe had with his VdB cutting.
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Here are pictures of 2 plants that I saved from drowning by burying the pot in floor dry. The little one is my black maderia and the other is a J.H. Adriatic. As you can see the J.H. Adriatic is doing much better that the Black Maderia. I also had another one but evidently it's doing so good that it blends in well with the other young trees.  By the way the sawdust looking stuff on that one leaf is snail bait.
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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Tom, I have used azomite on all my rooted cuttings and purchased plants at the advice of Richards Watts. It is full of trace minerals including iron. I've done no iside by side comparisons but I must say all my yearling plants are doing well and many have set fruit. See the link below for complete info. I bought mine of of ebay.
"gene"
http://www.azomite.com/
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Thanks for the link, Gene.  Which kind do you use and where do you get it?

Vivian
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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Vivian, do an ebay search for azomite and then look for the seller by the nane of "wheatgrasskits". They were the cheapest. As usual shipping in rather steep but I bought two (2) pound bags for the same shipping price. Search around and you might find a better price.
"gene"
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udaman

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
gene -

Thanks for the tip on azomite.  I found it on ebay and I'm ordering a 5 lb bag.  I'm always looking for natural and organic ways of fertilizing plants.  The analysis of azomite looks very interesting and it has many minerals.  I think I will still need to add limestone to my plants because I don't see that much calcium in azomite, and there is no nitrogen in it, so I'd have to supplement it with extra compost or blood meal.  I usually add manure tea to all my potted plants for a quick shot of food and along with the minerals makes for a well balanced meal, and I don't worry about burning the plant roots.
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JD

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
I use Azomite as well. The best price that I have found is at Fedco Seeds (Organic Growers Supply).

$5 for 5# or $25 for 44# for Coarse Azomite and
$5 for 5# or $27 for 44# for Micronized Azomite (powder/200 mesh)

JD
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genecolin

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
J.D. thanks for that source. I've purchased seeds from them before but didn't noticed that they sold Azomite. I'll check them our, price seems good. Their web site stinks.
"gene"
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
One can always learn so much from this fig forum...
I certainly will buy some Azomite.
Previously,for trace elements/minerals, I had purchased some "Greensand"
and "Glacial Rock Dust" from planetnatural.com.

*******
Law of the Minimum
The “father of fertilizer”, Justus von Liebig, developed the “Law of the Minimum” which is
important in understanding what AZOMITE® does. The Law states that plant growth is determined
by the scarcest, “limiting” nutrient; if even one of the many required nutrients is deficient,
the plant will not grow and produce at its optimum.
-----
Conventional fertilizer programs focus on macro-nutrients like
Nitrogen (N), Phosphorous (P) and Potassium (K).
[Remember the familiar NPK ratio 3:1:2?]

However, if one of the many essential trace elements is deficient in the
soil, the plant will not perform at its optimum, affecting yield and immune function.

AZOMITE® contains rare and abundant trace elements present in volcanic ash in addition to
rich minerals present in rivers – a unique combination found nowhere else on Earth.
-----
Typical Analysis - Compiled March 17, 2005
Mineral Analysis

Alumina (Al2O3)  11.43%
Barium oxide (BaO)  .09%
Calcium oxide (CaO)  3.67%
Carbon (C)   .61%
Chlorine (Cl)  .22%
Ferric oxide (Fe2O3)  1.37%
Hydrogen (H)  .38%
Magnesium oxide (MgO)  .78%
Manganese oxide (Mn2O3)  .02%
Nitrogen (N)  .15%   
Oxygen (O)  .73%  
Phosphorous pentoxide (P5O5)  .15% 
Potassium oxide (K2O)  5.23% 
Silica oxide (SiO2)  65.85% 
Sodium (NaO2)  2.07%
Strontium oxide (SrO)  .03% 
Sulfur trioxide (SO3)  .21% 
Titania (TiO2)  .20%
------
Trace Elements (below) 0.38%    LOI @750o C** 6.43%
 
*The alumina is not biologically available. It is bound to the silica and is an aluminosilicate. 
   Sand, clay, most rock deposits, and soil deposits are primarily aluminosilicates.
**LOI - "Loss on Incineration" during the trace analysis by Spark Source Mass Spectrometry.
Underlined = essential for most living species of plants and animals.
------
Element Analysis (PPM):
 
Antimony (Sb)  0.4
Arsenic (As)  1.1
Beryllium (Be)  3.3
Bismuth (Bi)  3.5
Boron (B)  29
Bromine (Br)  6.6
Cadmium (Cd)  0.3
Cerium (Ce)  230
Cesium (Cs)  21.7
Chromium (Cr)  6.1
Cobalt (Co)  22.3
Copper (Cu)  12
Dysprosium (Dy)  2.7
Eribium (Er)  1.7
Europium (Eu)  3.7
Fluorine (F)  900
Gadolinium (Gd)  3.7
Gallium (Ga)  15
Germanium (Ge)  6.1
Gold (Au)  .005
Hafnium (Hf)  21
Holmium (Ho)  0.6
Indium (In)  .010
Iodine (I)  2.2
Lanthanum (La)  220
Lead (Pb)  6.2
Lithium (Li)  859
Lutetium (Lu)  0.5
Molybdenum (Mo)  12.6
Mercury (Hg)  0.01
Neodymium (Nd)  5.1
Nickel (Ni)  2.6
Niobium (Nb)  40
Palladium (Pd)  .008
Praseodymium (Pr)  27
Rhenium (Re)  .011
Rhodium (Rh)  .002
Rubidium (Rb)  325
Ruthenium (Ru)  .013
Samarium (Sm)  6.2
Scandium (Sc)  2.7
Selenium (Se)  0.7
Silver (Ag)  .005
Strontium(Sr)  380
Sulfur (S)  240
Tantalum (Ta)  2.7
Tellurium (Te)  .022
Terbium (Tb)  0.8
Thallium (Ti)  5.9
Thorium (Th)  180
Thulium (Tm)  0.6
Tin (S)  2.9
Tungsten (W)  26
Uranium (U)  6
Vanadium (V)  7.8
Ytterbium (Yb)  1.4
Yttrium (Y)  23
Zinc (Zn)  64.3
Zirconium (Zr)  62.7 
*******


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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Bump for Azomite information
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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
I understand that soil testing is a good idea before adding soil supplements. With that long list of substances in Azomite, how would one know, based on a soil test, if Azomite is appropriate? Is it one of those things that couldn't hurt so do it just to cover all the bases?
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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfarmer
I understand that soil testing is a good idea before adding soil supplements. With that long list of substances in Azomite, how would one know, based on a soil test, if Azomite is appropriate? Is it one of those things that couldn't hurt so do it just to cover all the bases?


I have an interest in Azomite for my soil-less mixture.
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