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Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > An overdue step over update
 
 


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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
For those that are trying the Japanese step over method of growing figs I promised to update my project....I have been a bit stingy with the updates but here we go.  Will start with a brief recap for anyone new. 

I started the step over project in March of 2013 by putting in a rebar support, welding it together to rebar legs that are cemented in to the ground.  The plants went in which were VDB and they go around two sides of our pool cage with a plant every 14 feet.  




I watched the young plants closely and pruned them off to make them have two branches per plant that originated at ground level then let them grow straight up till the summer.  During that time if they tried to branch the branch was removed.  Mid summer laid them down in stages and tied them to the support rebar.  Once they were horizontal I snipped off the apical bud or the stem where the arm met it's neighbor. 



In the winter I picked which limbs would become verticals and pruned off the rest.  As the verticals grew I tied bricks to them to make them go horizontal then allowed 2 buds per limb to grow and picked the weaker one and pruned off the stronger bud.  


Now we are caught up:)  

I told myself to make sure I put the support structure in before they got too tall.....and of course I didn't.  The supports are 8' 4x4's 3 feet deep so 5' above ground level.  To them I added 4' cross arms.  I first tried plastic coated cable to string through the arms and found it did not work well because I did not have room at the ends to place braces to take the load and did not want to use inside braces for the posts.  I looked on line and finally decided to use 1/2 PVC electrical conduit to run between the arms.....it works very well.  It did need a support half way but PVC did that job also.  


They have been growing like weeds....the tallest ones in the picture are at 8' tall and just about every node from the ground up has a fig.  Not bad for 1 gallon plants just 15 months in ground.  

There are 6 of these supports.

!cid_20140711_143640.jpg 

!cid_20140711_143701.jpg 
!cid_20140711_144426.jpg 


When I bent them horizontal I criss crossed the arms for no reason other than I thought it looked cool.  The bases now are quite thick.
!cid_20140711_144357.jpg 
Some might say what about the figs and the pool!!!  That the roots will invade the concrete.  I researched that and found it to be a non issue.  But being cautious I placed the irrigation so it did not irrigate toward the concrete and that created a dry zone.  I dug down just recently near the pool wall and found the roots small near the pool and massive away from the pool where the water and fertilizer go.  

Now just waiting for the VDB's to ripen:)
strudeldog

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Looks great and so does the pool on a hot July day.  Do you plan on pruning them down to the horizontal every couple years and let new trunks develop or let them develop mass on the trunks.
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JD

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Nice work Will
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brackishfigger

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Very nice!!  I think that the idea is to prune down to the horizontal near the ground every winter, then grow new verticals every summer, correct?
eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Thanks for the update.   Nicely done! 

Are the vertical shoots tied to the PVC horizontal supports?  Do you think that those supports are essential for stability?

Looking forward to following your progress, as I am planning to try the same here.  My shorter growing season might limit the productivity compared to yours.  Being able to prune them down to the main trunk every fall should make it possible to cover them well though.
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Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid),  Col Littman's Black Cross.   And any cold hardy early fig.
ForeverFigs

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Been looking forward to seeing the progress on your various fig projects...very well done...it was worth the wait.
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Vince
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blueboy1977

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Strong work Wills! I wish I had your land and your time:) You always have some cool projects going on
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Rob
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Growing:  Black Madeira, Smith, LSU Scott's Black, Improved Celeste, VDB, MBvs, RDB, Unknown Peach/Apricot, Salce, Malta Black, Texas BA-1, JH Adriatic, Atreano, CDDN, CDDB, CDDG, Strawberry Verte
DonCentralTexas

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Inspiring! Thanks for blazing that trail for me.
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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Wow, that is really great!
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strudeldog
Looks great and so does the pool on a hot July day.  Do you plan on pruning them down to the horizontal every couple years and let new trunks develop or let them develop mass on the trunks.


They will get pruned down to the horizontal every year so the entire top goes away.  You leave spurs like you would for grapes.  
Chivas

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Looks great, are you planning to pinch or top the main shoots at some point or just make the supports taller?
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Brackishfigger,

Yep correct.

Eboone,

They are actually connected to the supports by velcro strips.  We do get hurricanes and wicked T-storms so yes I think the supports are needed.  The way they are pruned the junction of the vertical to the horizontal trunk would be a definite weak spot.  In even a 20 mph wind a 8' tall shoot would really whip violently and if it did not break it would be laying on the ground and the ducks would eat the figs:)  I think the ease of covering would make it great for the north......and it just looks cool.  
GRamaley

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Very nice!!
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Grasa

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
I am impressed. It sure looks awesome.  it will be fun to follow your doings and pruning to 2 nodes. I guess, it would be a lot easier to overwinter it also. Those in Japan are in greenhouses, I noticed, yours is in open air. Plan for die backs and not pruning until late winter, is that what you are planning?  Gosh, it sure looks fantastic.  Great job! Well done!
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katerina941

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Looks great ! Keep us updated on how it is growing. Thank you for sharing :)
Charlie

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Well done!  
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Hoosierguy86

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
This is really cool. Please post update pics after you prune back again.
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waynea

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
I like! Wills, this is well planned out, I have the bad habit of planting anywhere and everywhere without a specific plan. Supports are very important, even the unknown storms can produce 50-70 mph winds. I know Wilma hit us with strong winds and even sent a partial tree through our roof. Keep posting the innovative methods and updates of this project.
Figaro

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Fantastic job, Will!  I like the twist in the lower limbs and it's amazing how thick those bases got in only a season.  How  many VdB's in total around the pool?
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[B]Figaro Zone 10b - South Florida[/I]
Growing: Black Mission, Strawberry Verte, LSU Hollier, LSU Purple, LSU Scotts Black, Cajun Gold, Panachee, Excel, UCR 291-4, UCR 143-36, Violette de Bordeaux, Ronde de Bordeaux, Calvert,  Black Madeira, Col De Dame Blanc
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maedmonson

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
WillsC,
 Thanks for sharing.  Have you noticed any less vigorous growth on the cordons compared with the standard vertical growing fig?
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Jon,

I believe there are 7 plants in total, 3 on the short side and 4 on the long side.

Maedmonson,

I'm just not sure.....I was trying to figure it out and I guess I could measure the total length of the verticals per plant and compare that to a standard pruned plant but if I had to guess there is actually more growth.  I believe that is why you pick the weaker of the two buds to go vertical.  At first the plants kept trying to put out new branches on the cordon but that has stopped.  The other odd thing (to me) is that out of all those verticals and there are probably 50+ of them not a single one has tried to branch.  I figured I would have to constantly prune out the branches that would form on the verticals but for some reason they just don't branch.
rafed

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Looking very nice. I remember seeing it here when you started it.

Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Very nice. Fun watching the progress.
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Rob

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Looks great.  I wish I had the time to do something like that.  That's an impressive amount of growth in a little over a year.  Guess your climate really helps in that department

When I looked at the Japanese version I kinda had to guess since I don't read Japanse, but it seemed to me the main reason they did it was so that they could cover the horizontals with rice hull bricks to insulate during the winter.  So I'm a little unsure why you would go to the trouble given in your climate a fig tree shouldn't experience much dieback, and there's no real reason to cover the horizontals.  Seems like it would be more important for someone farther north.  Do you think the verticals provide more productivity than a standard tree would?  Do you plan on covering the horizontals?  Do you think this would work with any variety of fig?  If you lived in the north, could you envision using bales of straw or similar to insulate the horizontals in the winter, after trimming away the verticals?  I think that is the real upshot of this approach.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Rob,

You are correct that the Japanese do it that way as it is easier to protect the figs from the cold.  They also use that method as it is supposed to yield superior fruit.   I have two reasons for trying this 1.  It just looked so damn cool I just had to.  2. Pool cages here need rescreened every 15 years or so.  Growing the figs this way gives you a window in the winter to have the rescreening done with no vegetation in the way.  Mostly though it was reason #1 :)

I do think it could work well up north.  I think the amount of growth is attributable to our very long growing season and not to the style they are being grown. 
ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
WillsC,
Thanks for sharing the updated progress pictures and info.
With your long season, you could probably air layer all the vertical branches to get new rooted plants before colder temperatures stop growth.
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Pete,

Oh i'm sure you are right but what on earth would I do with 100 VDB's?  This week is air layer week, doing a bunch of them but not on the VDB.  
Chivas

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
100 VdB's would be nice planted along the drive way, pick as you drive.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Want 100?  To you I will send them:)   For me I would view that driveway as room for 100 new varieties......
Charley

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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
WillisC,

That is one very darned good idea.  I does look very cool, too.
As to a solution to the problem of too many airlayered plants, I believe you are familiar with Ebay.  Could you consider it a third crop?

Your implementation of something similar to the Japanese method is pretty nifty.  And I know you put a lot of thought into the plan.  I wonder if you considered just running a cable through the top of the vertical posts and using a drop strip of webbing with velcro loops attaching the verticals.  It would result in a lighter structure.  One feature I really like is that it would be so easy to winterize it here in Kentucky.  I have an abundance of oak leaves every fall.  It would be pretty easy to just blow them into a strip covering the trimmed figs, then cover with some carpet.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Charley,

VDB really is not in very great demand even though it is an excellent variety it is pretty common so Ebay would be saturated quite quickly.  If I could find a commercial source that wanted a few hundred VDB plants that would work I suppose.  That step over project as it stands now would probably yield 700 or so 8" cuttings?  


I'm not clear on what you mean about the support structure.  I did try a cable through the arms but it did not work well because of the need for braces. 
Chivas

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Well if ag regulations would allow it without all the paper work I would take you up on that offer, winterizing 100 might prove to be a challenge though I would like the look of my driveway.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
I figure I will use all the cuttings in the smoker, I hear fig wood is good to smoke with. 
Charley

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
WillsC,

My thought is that a slightly different support arrangement could be the posts with just one wire at the top.  Drop a narrow webbing strap from that to the rebar.  Attach the vertical growth to that strap using velcro loops.  The cross arms and the PVC would not be necessary in that design.  My question about it is whether you considered that, more along what I have seen of the Japanese method, and if you thought it would not work for your situation.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #35 

Charley,


Gotcha.  The thing is and it may not be readily apparent in the pictures as I am not the worlds best photographer lol is the verticals come off the horizontal trunk alternating from right side to left side.  So one lateral goes toward the screen and the next one goes away from the screen.  It allows the laterals to get the maximum light without shading each other.  In the configuration you suggest I would not be able to have as many laterals growing or if I did they would be very crowded.  Basically the laterals form a V so two angled walls.  If I could have I would have made the V even wider at perhaps 5 feet but that ship has sailed....should have planted them another 18" further from the pool wall.  This will work though.  

As it is I modified the Japanese style and have closer spaced laterals.  The reason for it is our exceptionally long growing season.  If I had spaced the laterals as far apart as the Japanese do I would end up with laterals 20 feet tall in one season and would be unable to protect them from the wind.  It is all experimentation and guess work.  I may not have spaced the laterals close enough as it is.....some of those lateral uprights are now topping 9' and we still have 3-4 months of growing season left.  Things here do not turn cold, well "Florida cold" lol till January.  
fignutty

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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Wills:

Thanks for the update. I'm going to try that here outdoors as a good way to allow winter protection. If I plant any in-ground in the greenhouse I'll also use your method.

When you have an evaluation of varieties please consider posting on fruits and orchards as well as here.
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Charley

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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
WillsC,

Thanks for the additional helpful information.  As you are useing that V shape, the PVC is necessary to provide some degree of horizontal support.

Since I'm in Kentucky with a much shorter growing season, and would use something to have growth in completely vertical orientation because of location, can you suggest what the spacing should be for the verticals?

Someone asked earlier in the thread about pinching to control the height.  Do you have any thoughts or plans to try that?  I'm asking because I have very limited knowledge of fig growing and don't fully understand how different methods affect yield.  If I were to pinch, it would not be for purposes of creating a branched tree for next season but for yield purposes, if that would happen.  Because of winter die back I would be cutting the verticals back as you plan to do.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
Charley,

While you don't have to use the V shape I don't see any reason not to unless you wanted to just grow them up a wall or something.  I don't feel qualified to give recommendations on spacing as this is new to me.  I believe the Japanese use 12"-18" between verticals on the same side so that would mean there is a lateral every 9" right left right left.  I have also seen pictures from Japan of laterals spaced much further apart.....so basically just have to guess and experiment and watch what happens and adjust from there. 

I am a great proponent of pinching but in this case with this system it creates problems.  As soon as you pinch out that apical bud the lateral will respond by firing off the side buds in an effort to get a leader back.  Once that happens you will spend the rest of the season removing 1000 side branches that keep forming.   As I mentioned earlier......so far growing this way none of the myriad of laterals has made a branch....they are just 6'-9' straight fig laden whips.  Now you might say ok so who cares if there are branches?  Well I think the branches would be a shading problem.......all that mass of branches would also give the wind something to grab on to and push against.  The branches would grow toward the screening which I don't want and last the branches would ruin the look of the plant and I think it looks cool like it is.  
Charley

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Thanks for the help with the good information.  I really appreciate you going over the thought process that you followed.  Since you have so many of the verticals anyway, it probably makes no sense to increase the shade with branches that are going to be removed at the end of the season.
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Chivas

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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
The v system is much more efficient.  It allow maximum light into the canopy and keep things even (assuming you oriented them properly ie with the line of the sun path).  If they aligned with the sun path perpendicularly then you will have un even ripening from side to side where the east side will tend to ripen faster and the west side will tend to have less sugars.  

I would be really interested to see this done with something like col de dama, I bet you could get a really high yield doing this.
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Charley

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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
I can believe the V system will give higher yields as there are more verticals.

However I'm not as certain about other parts of the comparison.  The leaves on the upper side of the slanted verticals will always shade the lower side.

In my case I need to have a somewhat flat form espallier, as if grown against a wall.  It could be in a garden bed adjacent to an open fence.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
Charley,

There is always shading but Chivas is right that angled it reduces the shading as the plant takes up a larger foot print.  There is no reason not to grow it the way you describe, it will work fine.
Chivas

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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
When using the v system, it may be advisable also to trim a few lower leaves for air flow, but I doubt you would need to take many, if they are constantly shaded, 1 or 2 from the bottom should not be an issue and would free up some resources for the tree.  

An example is in greenhouse vegetable production, the most common way to grow tomatoes is on a v system.  It works very well provided ample spacing between the two plants in given to maximize light penetration.  This of course is different since tomatoes are annual crops and figs are perennial, tomatoes growing like this will end up get 2-3 leaves taken from the bottom each week depending on weather and variety etc.  As far as less sugars and uneven ripening it has been proven in vineyards and apple orchards that having them go in the correct orientation of the sun will reduce variances and make for more uniform crops, I believe in Napa valley it depends which part of the valley you are in having your rows going east to west or north to south is advantageous but for the most part east to west was shown to be more beneficial.  In northern places like canada, spindle apple trees have also shown to be more uniform in crops and sugars/ripening time when going east to west with the rows.  The reason for this is the sun intensity and fruit temperature, morning sun tends to get more energy out and the fruit warms up more quickly given places for sugars and sap to flow sooner than the shaded side which will have cooler fruit temperatures and then by the time afternoon sun hits it it has lagged behind with fruit temperature and this is what will cause delayed ripening and lower sugars.  Sap will always flow to the warmer part of a plant/tree before the cooler parts, this is why cooler night time temperatures are excellent for fruit sizing as they are where the sugars go as temperatures drop first, followed by the stem of the plant of tree and lastly the leaves.   Sorry if i rambled on here a bit but I thought maybe I should explain my previous statement a bit.
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DonCentralTexas

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Posted Reply with quote  #44 
WillsC,

If it's not too much to ask would you post an update this fall?  

I'm curious, did your verticals continue to grow above 9'?  Did the verticals continue to fruit?  How was your harvest?

Thanks!
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If you have these for sale/trade PM me: Zingarella, Grantham's Royal, Calderona, Genovese Nero, Noir de Barbentane
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
Don,

Isn't that a coincidence....just this morning I posted an update to it on Rafed's facebook fig forum.  Sure let me write one up.  
goodeats4me

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Posted Reply with quote  #46 
 Thanks for sharing such a cool way to prune/train figs. Do any of you experienced growers have an opinion if this method would work well in extreme temperatures of over 110F. I am thinking about providing a little afternoon shade (10%) next summer in the extreme heat, any opinions?
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nelson20vt

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Posted Reply with quote  #47 
Wow, great job Wills looks amazing.
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