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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
Always struggling with rooting! This year I am still trying the cloner, but the humidity chamber is posing more of a challenge. I am rooting in mostly perlite with a little peat moss. I started with a heavier peat concentration but noticed drainage problems and switched to less peat. All cuttings are in 16 oz clear cups with holes drilled in the bottom. The chamber is on a heat mat w temperature probe set to 80 F and humidity is about 80%. I am watering about twice a week and misting daily with a fortified mixture, not straight h2O, rather a light fertilizer with rapid start added to the water. The cuttings are under T5 bulbs 16 hrs a day and then they sleep. I have a maddening mixture of one of mostly two developments.

1. Leafing out with little sign of roots. The third pic shows 3 cuttings in the front row w no visible roots. The second row, left is a BM that has a small root showing, but also breaking leaves, it started in spaghnum moss and after buds swelled but no roots I switched it into the cup.

2. Some cuttings have a little root action but no leaves. The leafless cuttings have been in the chamber since the day after christmas.

What can I do to improve my success or speed things up? Help!

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Rob

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
If they are in a humidity chamber, I don't see why you would need to ever water.  I have mine in my basement where it's 70 degrees or so with low humidity (30 %?) and I only water once or twice a week. 

I don't know how or why you would want to speed things up.  Each cutting has its own pace.  As long as by April or may you have a tree, what's the difference how fast it got roots and/or leaves?

I keep mine in plastic shoe boxes with the lids cracked in sphagnum moss until I see real roots.  In this way I tend not to get the problem of a bunch of leaves with no roots because any leaves that grow in the shoe box in sphagnum tend to fall off fairly quickly.  If you get a bunch of leaves and no roots and you want to keep the leaves you'll have to leave it in the chamber for a long time.  Or what I do is take a plastic bag and poke a few holes in it here and there and place it over the cutting to keep the moisture levels up.  Then you can gradually poke more and more holes until it is self sufficient.  But this is pointless until there are enough roots to sustain the leaves.

I don't think roots without leaves is really a problem.  If you have a fully developed root system before it tries to push leaves, that just means you will have fewer leaves drop when they do push out.  You could probably put it in ambient air with no humidity chamber, especially the one with that paraffin tape or whatever it is.  If it's able to push through the paraffin and there are roots, it probably won't need the humidity chamber.  If you leave it in the chamber, you'll never know for sure when it's safe to take it out, so it makes it trickier. 

If by BM you mean black madeira, that one can take a really long time before it does anything.  Just be patient and don't apply too much moisture.  Balance is the key.
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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Hi rafaelissimmo, I am a newbie at this also but I think you might be watering to much. I made that same mistake and two starts rotted completely and a third rotted about a 1/2 inch before the roots started. I went to a big box store and bought a moister meter and only water when it reads a 3. I made another mistake of not pushing the meter to the bottom of the cup and  pushed the meter to the bottom of the cup and it read an 8. Way to wet. I think I have about the same setup you have, except I am rooting in a fish tank now. Hope this helped.


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figpig_66

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Yep. Agreed dont water. If in chamber. I water three times since November kept in chamber. I have some with roots. Some with leaves. Some with roots and leaves. They been rooting since November 28th. Others i keep in fish tank grow much faster. Fish tank with little wYer on bottom and pots kept raised out of water and have platic wrapp on top with only sun light hotting it. No heat keep it in closed green house ( hoop house) richie from louisiana zone 8
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Rick:
Hmm I may have to get a moisture meter. Did you notice better rooting when it read 3?

Btw Rob, I am not in a hurry, although when it is near zero outside its hard not to be in a hurry for spring. It is normal to expect growth or progress. Stagnation in rooting is not a good sign. That's all I am trying to right.
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DesertDance

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Are your cuttings in the dark?  Roots like it dark.  I'd put some dark construction paper over the cups so the roots think it's dark.  You could use removable tape so you can peek, but leave them in the dark for a while.

Suzi
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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Rafael, I would take roots only any day over leaves only, it will be just a matter of time when vegetation arrives in full force. I had a Green Ischia that had roots only for 4 months and finally a stem and then leaves, that thing took off and I should get several rewards from it this year. Maybe 16 hours under lights might be a bit too much?? Maybe?
ADelmanto

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Sorry for your issues. I don't understand the logic behind misters and cloners. With my space issues I am limited to starting cuttings in my closet. I started about 50 varieties today in sphagnum moss. I can check on them easily and pot them up as they root. If I had a basement to grow in I guess I would start them directly in pots. Hopefully it warms up soon so I can pot them up and leave them in the heated hoop house to continue growing. Btw closet is about 70 degrees and the hoop house can dip to 50 degrees at night even with the heater.
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Aaron, these are not cloner issues. I am talking about perlite cups in a humidity chamber. I know you are not a fan of cloners, but Harvey and Danny are using them and I had some success with them last year. Nothing is perfect for me unfortunately. Moss-I gave up on it this year, buds swelling and no roots=too much trouble as well.
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ADelmanto

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
I have never tried them, so I really have no strong opinion. I have had success with moss. I would guess greater than 95% Of the few cuttings that fail, I would blame the failure on the quality of the cutting. Usually the failure is due to being too cold/wet/hot in transit before it gets to me. I probably rooted 300 cuttings last year and was happy with the results. I did have a few more loses when transitioning to pots, but minimal.

If I were rooting directly in cups I would use 50% coir and 50% ProMix HP. I've never tried it, but that's what I would do.

Best of luck to you.

After looking at your pictures I thought I should mention that I use 4x4x9" pots. I bury the rooted cuttings up to the top node. With only one node exposed my thinking is that it gives the cutting the most chance for root development and limits dehydration.
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Thanks Aaron. The parafilm helps with the dehaydration issue, you should try it.
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ako1974

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
I don't know how or why you would want to speed things up.  Each cutting has its own pace.


I agree with Rob - aside from light or watering considerations, I've found that cuttings from the same tree, rooted under the same general conditions at the same time can easily yield different results. So far, I've had decent results, but they could be a bit better.

That said, I just used my moisture meter and found many of my cuttings were on the dry side, which is probably what's affecting rooting at the moment. I've had a lull for a few days where nothing rooted after a productive previous 2 weeks.
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Ako & Rob

Quote:

It is normal to expect growth or progress. Stagnation in rooting is not a good sign. That's all I am trying to right.
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Hermitian

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Please see: Why do rooted cuttings suddenly die?
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Richard

Thank you for that. The title refers to cuttings but the link talks about soil and containers. Neither is involved here-I believe there is a bit too much moisture here, I am between wet and moist. I am leaving the chamber open to promote some evaporation. I expect to buy a moisture meter as well. The cups are not draining well despite three decent sized drilled holes in the cup bottom. Seems like a large chunk of perlite will sit on the hole and block drainage. Maybe side holes?
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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rafaelissimmo
Richard Thank you for that. The title refers to cuttings but the link talks about soil and containers. Neither is involved here-I believe there is a bit too much moisture here, I am between wet and moist. I am leaving the chamber open to promote some evaporation. I expect to buy a moisture meter as well. The cups are not draining well despite three decent sized drilled holes in the cup bottom. Seems like a large chunk of perlite will sit on the hole and block drainage. Maybe side holes?


Investing in rooting pots would be even better :)
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ako1974

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
You can put in side holes but it also helps if you throw some cooling (cookie/bread) racks in the chamber and place the cups on top. That's what I do and they do drain well despite that bits of perlite will stick somewhat in the holes. I have my rootings in clear cups with perlite, covered with baggies. I remove the baggies once per day for a couple hours - labor-intensive for a lot of cuttings, I know - but it's worked well for me.

As far as the stunted growth once roots begin, I always try to blame it on a stubborn cutting. I'm not sure if that's always the case, but if the conditions remain the same for all cuttings, it's difficult for me to figure out why one stunts and others spike. I think some are just really slow rooters compared to others. For example, the Domenick cuttings I have have exploded. Roots and leaves everywhere, after just 3 weeks. I have a Black Madeira going and it rooted ever so slightly after 4 weeks and the buds are swelling - look so pretty - but they're pushing out and opening at a glacial pace. I certainly think it's advantageous for the plant to root quickly in order to build strength, but I think they do sometimes move at their own pace. 

That said, I still have A LOT to learn :)

Good luck!
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Thx Ako
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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Hi rafaelissimo,
A plant needs light, nutrients , heat and some humidity or water to grow .
I assume you have enough heat, because you seem happy with the global humidity.
You say that you have a lighting setup, so lets say that's ok .
Because you're using perlite, I would say they are lacking the nutrients.
Since those have roots, I would add some potting soil on top of the cups to feed them and see if that helps them.
With fertilizer be careful as to not burn the young plant.
Did you try rooting your panache ?
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Jd

I have a panache tree, am not rooting. I may have some cuttings if you want some.
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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Hi Rafael, No I did not notice any change as yet. Just did the change of soil and move a week ago. Patience is the key. Mine have been rooting for 5 weeks now and one I can see roots, 3 other have roots and they all have green growth even the two single nodes. Good luck and go slow.

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Hi rafaelissimo,
I have one myself thank you . Some say, it is a slow rooter, thus my question.
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
JDS

Two of the pictures cuttings with leaves are striped Rimadas (not Panachee), but they appear not to have roots.
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nycfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Rafael,

I think your issues are ones that all of us have with some cuttings.  I guess some are just slow rooters and some are slow to leaf out.
Is it the variety?  The environment?  Who knows?  We do our best and I'm just learning how to not kill my cuttings with love.  That being
said, here's what I've learned that may pertain to your setup:
  • Moisture meters are useless (for me).  Watering by weight is so much better.
  • Don't need the humidity bin if rooting in the cloner.  Can't weigh in on rooting in the bin because it never really worked for me.
  • Had the last of my cuttings from the humidity bin under lights before switching to the AC for rooting full time.  I felt the lights on for 16 hrs a day was beneficial.  Still do it.
  • I noticed a big difference in the health of the cuttings when I raised the room temp to 75-79F and lowered the heat mat temp to 79F.
  • Your potting medium is perfect.
  • I've skipped the cup stage and go direct to pots after rooting in the cloner.  This doesn't help with your current humidity chamber issues but its an affirmation for the AC.
  • Roots only is fine IMO.  Take a look at the pics.  All of the cuttings in those pots were well rooted in the AC for more than 60 days; you can see the dates on the tags.  Finally decided to pot them up and voila, a few of them are starting to show signs of life above the soil line.
  • I use to mist also.  Felt that it wasn't doing anything so stopped doing it.  No changes were noticed.
  • Cut all nutrients down to 1/4 strength.  My watering schedule is 2 waterings of plain (aged) water and 1 watering of 1/4 strength fertilizer.
IMG_4546.JPG IMG_4547.JPG IMG_4549.JPG IMG_4550.JPG 


My suggestions; Keep everything on heat mat, under lights and:
  • Start to transition the cuttings with leaves and no roots out of humidity bin.  If still no roots after transition, pot them up and water by weight.
  • Move the cuttings with with roots and no leaves out of the bin.  Start watering by weight.
  • Cut fertilizer down to 1/4 strength and don't mist.  Alternate 2 waterings plain and 1 watering fertilizer.

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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Danny

Thank you for the superb response, much appreciated. The only problem is that I cannot raise the outside ambient temperature in my bsmt to 79 because that would turn my house into an oven and cost a fortune. My temps are 72, I realize that is not ideal, in the humidity chamber it gets close to 80 and thats why I use it. We want to have our cake and eat it. In late spring the basement gets to 80 naturally and the cuttings like it, but with the polar vortex swirling over the northeast these days, spring seems a lifetime away.
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nycfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
I understand Rafael.  I took over a separate room in the house and use a space heater in there.  My younger son has allergies, so generally we 
keep the house temps around 68F.  Figs were not liking it so bought a space heater for the room.  Works out well.

Any chance of building some type of temporary enclosure around the whole setup?  Maybe with some heavy gauge plastic and 2x2's.  You could
put a small space heater set really low in the enclosure with the cuttings.  Alternatively, you could purchase one of these:

Delonghi Heater

and just place it in front of the set-up.  It was suggested by rcantor in another thread.  I bought one for the shed and it works great.
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Danny - I keep my house on the cooler side because I don't like a warm house and to save a few bucks - and because for space concerns, it's best that I have all my rooting/germination done downstairs. I only have one heating zone...but I've done exactly what you suggested above: I've draped a clear plastic painter's drop cloth over the whole shelf system, which includes heat mats. I don't take temperatures inside the shelves - when I open it up to air it out once/day, I can feel higher heat in there - but I assume it's aiding the rooting process since I'm having decent success so far this year. 
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Glad to hear about your success, Arne.  I'm having similar success this year and heat is definitely one of the major factors.
Was thinking about it and in Rafael's case he could probably just get away with using his lights and heat mats to produce
enough heat for the whole enclosure.
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rafaelissimmo

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Danny & Arne

I am not doing an enclosure, it is way too crowded in my bsmt, last year I knocked over my T5s, damaged bulbs, and then there are the figs which are too delicate to breathe on. I think I will try the space heater, although all that dry heat concerns me a bit as well. The grafting tape is definitely helping me with the cloner, I see a couple of buds breaking through the tape. Danny has a covered cloner I believe. But the transplanted cuttings will have to be watered frequently as the environment is very dry, water evaporates real quick in my bsmt. I will probably transition in the humidity chamber to be safe. Transitioning is a separate can of worms and is off this topic-it gave me fits last year. I lost several nice figs in transitioning, but I feel am ready for the challenge this year.
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