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FIGenthusiast

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I forget which one of you trusted members claimed that fig tree growth becomes ever-hardy after it turns 5 years old; in any case, I have two questions:

1) I've noticed that plants in pots grow, in girth, MUCH more slowly than in-ground plants. What is this "5-year" mark based on, plants in pots or plants in the ground?

2) Is this "5-year" mark based on plants that started out their first year as 1/2"-caliper cuttings or are we assuming that plants are already a certain size when the "5-year" clock starts ticking?
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Growing: Chicago Hardy, Black Mission, Lattarula, Desert King, Marseilles Black VS, Sal's EL, Marseilles White, Verte (Green Ischia), Blue Ischia, Violette de Bordeaux, Panache, Ronde de Bordeaux, & Brown Turkey.

Rooting: Nero 600M, O'Rourke, Smith, Lattarula, Chicago Hardy

Being Shipped Soon: Malta Black, LaRadek's EBT, Longue d'Aout, Stella, Improved Celeste, I-258, Rafed's Genovese Nero, Golden Riverside

Wishlist: Any cold-hardy, early-ripening cultivar that can fruit immediately after winter dieback to soil line.
SCfigFanatic

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
In ground it takes 3 years average for mine to survive winters without any added
protection. Even when I get winter kill back, the new growth often is 4-6 feet of growth in one summer.
And still produces fruit.
My zone is warmer, and does give a longer season.
Not sure about zone 6, I moved from a zone 5, you don't see figs in ohio.
Those that do will be in pots.

Doug
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ADelmanto

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
I've never heard of a "5 year mark". I have heard that most figs can survive down to 20 degrees. I would imagine there are variations as far as varieties and length of exposure to this temp. I recommend that if you want to plant a variety in the ground when you know your zone will get that cold you should research what varieties will do well for you. On top of that I keep my cuttings in pots for 2 winters before planting in the ground. After that I wrap in ground trees forever. If you keep your trees in pots you need to keep them above 20 all winter. I think the main killer is "freezer burn", a combination of cold and wind that dries out the exposed wood and kills it.
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LeanderFig

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
All good info, since I live in zone 5a and am just starting with figs. So 20f is about the minimum survival temp, but what would the highest storage temp be so they stay dormant? I had planed on putting mine it the crawlspace of my house, but am finding out that it gets to be 60-65f. Garage wouldn't be good. Gets down to 10f or so sometimes.
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ADelmanto

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Garage would be better than 60 degrees. Is there a way to get a small heater in there? Just to raise it above 20?
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chrisb9341

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
I am also in zone 5a. I have 40 trees in my unheated attached  garage. They are stacked against the house side of the garage with 2 tarps over them. I will put a small electric heater under the tarp with them during very cold weather. This has worked fine for the last 3 yrs.
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Chris
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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
For planting in ground, everything is about the environment around them.
Chill hours for your location limit or extend the growing season.
If you grow a apple tree needing 1200 hours of chill, it most likely will not fruit in a zone with 400 chill hours per year average.
Same with black sweet cherries.
Live and learn.

http://www.gardenality.com/Articles/1055/Resources/Calculators-and-Charts/Chill-Hours-Map-Chart-For-United-States/default.html
If I could grow oranges like they do in florida,, I would.
I'm just not in the right zone for it.
But I would have no need for a green house as I picked more than I really wanted already.
My season is plenty long enough for figs, but not suited for many other fruits.
Just my thoughts.

Doug
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LeanderFig

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADelmanto
Garage would be better than 60 degrees. Is there a way to get a small heater in there? Just to raise it above 20?

Heating the garage could be a bit expensive. Gonna have to do more thinking on this. Maybe it would be colder at the far end of the crawl space, and by the wall. I'll have to check it out.
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jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 

At the risk of jinxing myself:  I protect my in-ground plants well against winter wind and sun; but while I provide light insulation, I provide no artificial heat.  The only relative warmth comes from the earth.  With this system, I've had 6 varieties survive roughly -5 F (Z6 norm) for 1-3 winters.  So my guess is that a fully dormant, cold hardy variety can survive temperatures well below 15-20 F if it is protected from both cold wind and hot sun (early emergence).   
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Great information!

I hope to contribute next season.

19 covered plants in ground, 3, 1' , mid July buried cuttings, and the rest >1 year planted mid July also.

Tied, insulated, covered, and the hope I did not murder my plants.
rcantor

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Good luck!  I have a Hardy Chicago in the ground in Kansas City, MO, Z6.  One year it was fully dormant, covered with a tarp and snow and there was a low of 17 degrees and that killed all the branches that were still outside. None of the cuttings from them survived.  Someone from zone 8 reported that all of his in ground figs would die back, regrow but never ripen fruit.  That's why most of my plants are in pots.  My in ground Hardy Chicago dies back to the ground every year but regrows to 12' with multiple stems and gives me lots of fruit.  If you try some outside, one should be a Hardy Chicago.  Bury it as deeply as you can. Fig plants come back from underground wood that didn't die, not the roots.
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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
What Bob said, but for Sal's(Gene or EL) too.  There are probably several other similar 'Mt Etna' varieties that can survive the cold a little better.
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Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid),  Col Littman's Black Cross.   And any cold hardy early fig.
LeanderFig

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
I've decided to put mine in the garage next winter. The crawl space doesn't get below 62f. I'll just have to bring them into the house if it gets below 15f till it warms up a bit. I'll just have to keep it down to 4 trees or so. I don't understand how wrapping trees helps if they are in a garage though. I guess it might help with temperature swings or something. I do have one Chicago Hardy that I planted in the ground this spring. I mulched heavily to protect the roots, and we'll see if it comes back.
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TorontoJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
You may want to consider some of the winter proven unknowns that are out there. Check out those offered by forum member ADelmanto.


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LeanderFig

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoJoe
You may want to consider some of the winter proven unknowns that are out there. Check out those offered by forum member ADelmanto.

Thanks for the suggestion Joe! I just put some of those in moss, and trying some in pots also! They were great looking cuttings, and if they don't make it, that's on me.
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SCfigFanatic

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 

"Someone from zone 8 reported that all of his in ground figs would die back, regrow but never ripen fruit."

50% of the figs I picked last summer grew on 2 year old trees that died to the ground last winter.

I wouldn't bother growing figs if that happened to me.
Mine do produce almost always
after a winter kill so long as they are at least 2 years old.

The roots can not freeze and live.
The root ball needs to be below the frost line or depth of dirt that
freezes each year.
It was 36" frost line in ohio, 6" frost line in South Carolina.
If you are in a zone that keeps roots alive below frost line,
the tree should survive winter and just re grow stronger each year.
Doug

edit

"Fig plants come back from underground wood that didn't die, not the roots."

Excuse me but what do you imagine feeds the remaining wood?
The roots.
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Mario_1

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Leander Fig, if you have them in garage against house wall just cover the cold side and leave the warm house wall exposed, should help depending how warm the house is and how cold the garage is
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Wallingford CT, USA zone 6a would be happy to meet and get together with other members near me Wish list; Any fig from any specific place anywhere in Italy
jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
<< The roots can not freeze and live.
The root ball needs to be below the frost line or depth of dirt that
freezes each year.
It was 36" frost line in ohio, 6" frost line in South Carolina. >>

Chester --

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that this is right.  I'll offer two observations.  First, I have a friend who has hundreds of figs in pots, which she overwinters in an unheated detached garage.  She lives in Z5b, where winter lows reach -10 F or worse.  The root balls in her garage freeze solid.  Sometimes they are still frozen in late April when she takes the pots outside.  She loses some plants, but the vast majority of her collection survives (otherwise there'd be no collection).  Second, the frost line here in Z5-6 reaches, as you note, many feet below the ground.  The ground is frozen solid.  I doubt that there is much of a root system below the frost line.   

To the contrary, I think that the earth is a huge heat sink that prevents the ground from getting much below 30F.  So figs in frozen ground are protected against really low temperatures.  Hence plants that die due top exposure tent to die down to the ground but no further.  Plenty of other plants survive frozen root balls, why not figs?  

I realize that there is a bit of a disconnect between my observations here and the experience of some growers.  It's still a bit of a mystery to me.  The one thing I know for sure is that my friend's figs are deeply dormant before / during / and briefly after the root balls freeze.  Achieving dormancy before really cold weather hits and maintaining dormancy while cold weather persists seems key. 
 
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
for your reference.
http://sqfoot.com/pdf/US_Map_Frost_DepthAVG.pdf

The plants in buckets that survive freezing solid roots is
a new one to me.
Not all zones will produce the same results when in ground.
Does anyone with dormant trees in pots let roots freeze solid?

Doug

Just to add,
my father in ohio put all his figs in a unheated garage.
Every single one (15) died.
he gave up trying to growing figs.
Not worth fighting the climate.
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Mario_1

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
I agree with Joe D, figs will survive 25 degrees correct ? The ground would be frozen.
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Wallingford CT, USA zone 6a would be happy to meet and get together with other members near me Wish list; Any fig from any specific place anywhere in Italy
SCfigFanatic

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
who stores figs at 25 degrees?
Maybe those living in the real cold zones could answer.
Im sure there is thread after thread on how to keep figs dormant.
None of them will tell you to store figs at below freezing temps.

I don't do the shuffle. don't need to.


Doug
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Me too I agree with Joe D.
I leave on zone 5 
Most of my figs stay outside all winter covered with a  excavator's type  geotextile and a maximum of 3 inches of dirt on top of the textile.
Here the frost line reaches around 3 and a ½
feet deep. They pass the winter season fine even if they frozen dead as long they dont get the above ground wind .
What kills them the most are the dissecating winds that freeze burn them.  
If they are covered like mine they go trough winter  fine.
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Rio Zone 5 Montreal Canada
SCfigFanatic

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
If you can grow fig trees in zone 5, good for you!
I have 73 in ground trees.
Tired of discussing it.

Doug
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCfigFanatic
If you can grow fig trees in zone 5, good for you!
I have 73 in ground trees.
Tired of discussing it.

Doug


Sorry Doug
No showing off or offence intended.
Best wishes
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Rio Zone 5 Montreal Canada
grant441

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
I left 100 fig trees outside in pots during winter 2 years ago and we had snow, freezing rain, and temps in the teens,all but a few came back in spring.The roots can freeze and live.All of my in ground trees do good unprotected until about Febuary when we experience real warm weather then a late freeze,thats what kills my trees to the ground,they all come back stronger each time.Someone told me that the warm weather makes the sap rise and if it freezes at that point it kills the tree?
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jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
<< What kills them the most are the dissecating winds that freeze burn them. >>

Rio -- yes, this makes sense.  Thx.  At some point, cold per se may kill.  But the dormant fig, protected from wind and sun, seems much tougher than many people think.

<< If you can grow fig trees in zone 5, good for you! >>

As Rio said, no offense intended.  It's just that you made a very strong assertion that was inconsistent with what I've observed.  I wouldn't want potential fig growers in the northern U.S. and Canada to be discouraged needlessly.
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Joe D
SCfigFanatic

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
I grew up on a farm in zone 5, lived in that zone most of my life.
Then I moved to where I am.
The growing season is 3 months longer here.
What I can easily grow here, I would have struggled to grow in ohio.
Those in colder zones, they need greenhouses to extend their season.
Not trying o discourage anyone. Give it a try and see.

Doug
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ADelmanto

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
"Just to add,
my father in ohio put all his figs in a unheated garage.
Every single one (15) died.
he gave up trying to growing figs.
Not worth fighting the climate."

I keep 200+ pots in an unheated greenhouse all winter. (NJ z6) I covered the inside walls with rigid insulation. It acts like a giant igloo cooler. I water a couple times in the winter so the pots do not completely dry out. My pots can and do freeze solid. Last winter I did not loose a single tree. Keeping the wind out is #1 priority. It's been said before but bears repeating. The #2 killer is an early warm up followed by a hard freeze.
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jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
ADelmanto -- That's great info and a sensible conclusion.  Thx.
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Hi,
I've been toying with figs in pots, just to have backups for in case of a harsh winter coming back.
The pots are in the garden-house , no building nearby, no house nearby, the field is (was) opened to the winter. I grew an edge to cut the wind blow.

The pots get frozen solid for 2/3 weeks twice in the winter.
Last year my low was at -10°C/ 5°F (mild winter), and I didn't lose a single tree.
I had one tree in a pot as thin as a 1.5Liters soda-bottle. The pot froze solid, and the tree survived.
If you search on the forum, I have a picture of cuttings frozen in a soda-bottle, and they still grew leaves at Spring time ... But did not root due to my neglect probably.

You should start bothering about temps, when you reach or sink under -15°C / 5°F ...
But under -15°c, wahtever the age of the figtree ... you may be in trouble.
I lost several in-ground trees in 2012 due to temps sinking and reaching -25°c once in a night in February. The age of the tree did not make a difference.
Most of the old fig-trees I knew had to come back from the roots. Of course, some being near building, they got some extra heat from the heating of the buildings ...
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TorontoJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Very interesting the comment about wind. A number of the old-timers near me in Toronto swear its the wind and other elements more than the cold that does the real damage. "Freezing" itself doesn't seem to be what kills anyhow. If it was nobody around me would be able to grow figs at all. Growers like Adriano just put potted figs laid flat on the ground with shallow plywood walls. The certainly freeze and come back. 

As noted above though there seems to be a limit that appears to be tied to the variety and age of the tree. Older trees seem tougher and below -15c or -20c watch out...... Some out there claim hardy to -30c. I'd like to get my hands on those trees. 

I doubt you'll find those in named varieties....likely rather in some old neighbourhood being lovingly tended to...

Would like to hear more experience stories after this winter.
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoJoe
..As noted above though there seems to be a limit that appears to be tied to the variety and age of the tree. Older trees seem tougher and below -15c or -20c watch out...... Some out there claim hardy to -30c. I'd like to get my hands on those trees. 

Sorry don't want to shatter anyone's fig dreams but I am willing to bet a ficus carica tree that can take -30C don't exist.
Unfortunately research on ficus carica focuses on the fig production areas and grower issues not cold tolerance.  
Only people like us looking trying to grow figs in the north to savour a fresh ripe fig are coming up with creative ways to grow figs.  
We can't change the biology of the fig.  If we did it wouldn't be a fig as we know it would be a frankenfig or something.
Agreed to observation that I have seen indicates dormant and established fig wood in the open can take prolonged exposure to -9C/14F.  
We all know that if the temperature dips to -25C/-13F as is common around here the figs do fine tucked in with protection.  It may be -25C outside but nice and cozy for the protected fig. 

I don't use any supplemental heating and my figs have grown and produced figs for over 22years.  The winter of 2013 was a tough one for some that skimped on the winter protection.


  
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Pino, zone 6, Niagara,  JCJ Acres
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71GTO

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
I agree with the wind and other elements. I kept figs of all sizes in a detached concrete garage during some brutal years. It was basically the same temp in there as outside never lost a tree. Plenty of nights in the teens. I have even kept trees in a storage unit outside for one winter and they were not effected at all.
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SCfigFanatic

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
Roots hold moisture.
When water freezes it expands.
When roots freeze, the moisture in them freezes then expands.
It destroys root tissue.
If your figs can be frozen solid then live, only proves how tough a plant the fig is.
We do not reach lows like you guys talk about, but I have had a young tree freeze
to death, even in my climate where we do not get to -15.
Let em freeze, only a few die.


Doug
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TorontoJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
This is interesting. I have no illusions that -30c will kill a fig tree. It'll kill most things..... but in this post we're talking about "freezing". My attached garage wont ever hit -30c or even -15c for that matter. But -5c and a bit lower isn't that uncommon. I know many who successfully overwinter the same way. Be it in a garage or buried.

Last I checked -5c (23F) is still very much frozen. These trees are freezing, roots and all. So I wonder what the difference is "between" freezing and "freezing to death"?
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jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
<< when roots freeze . . . . >>

Doug --

Dormancy reduces moisture in roots and branches.  So it takes lower temperatures to cause a damaging freeze in a dormant plant.  

Variations in damage to roots would seem to depend on:

1.  How dormant is the fig tree?
      a.  How readily does the variety shed moisture in preparation for winter?  This may be one major variable determining cold hardiness.
      b.  How well did growing conditions help prepare the fig tree for winter?  For example, was it consistently 50-60F or 30-40F before temperatures dropped to 20F?  

This may be the bigger issue in warmer growing areas like yours.

2.  How cold is the soil?  The earth is a huge heat sink.  It takes consistently cold weather to lower soil temperatures much below the surface because warmth is continuously migrating from deeper levels.  So one day at 0F may be inconsequential for soil temperature; one week might matter.

This may be a bigger issue in colder growing areas like mine.  

Of course, a pot stored in an unheated garage doesn't benefit much from the relative warmth of the earth.  But given observations of growers who store potted figs in unheated garages, it seems that the roots of fully dormant figs might be able to tolerate temperatures approaching 0F.  
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Freezing branches to ground level will likely re grow. froze
Freezing the root ball turned the roots to mush. That did not grow back. dead


Doug
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TorontoJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
This is very much what I'm interested in - The potted trees in my garage (roots included) are definitely reaching temperatures of at least -5c (23F) and often stay there for some time.... Are you suggesting that they're not frozen? In this environment not only do the roots survive but the existing growth as well.
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jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Seconding what TorontoJoe says, the potted figs in my friend's unheated detached garage must get down to ~10F or lower when the outside air temp is -15F, which is a level reached last winter.  Yet in April, I bought one each of the following from her -- Takoma Violet, Sal's EL, Brooklyn White, Nordland, O'Rourke, and Smith -- once she had unpacked them from the garage.  Not only did they all thrive but they all also produced ripe figs.

Was it not cold enough for the branches or roots to freeze?
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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
Freezing can kill a tree with green growth because it is full of water, but one that stopped growing sooner and is lignified will be fine. Only fine roots will be damaged by light freezing, and they regrow quickly in the spring. Prolonged freezing temperatures can cause containers to "freeze dry", especially fabric containers.

But if if the container is totally soaked (like a container left outside where the drainage holes are frozen shut and melting snow or rain fills it up, or overwatered) it will turn into a solid block of ice and can kill large roots like Doug said. This can kill even hardier container trees like apples or blueberries.
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TorontoJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
Hmmm....this is what I'm trying to reconcile in my head...(ALL SPECULATION) I'm starting to think it's all about how we define "freezing". OK - So we do away with the idea that "freezing" isn't the problem if we're talking about the general acceptance of what freezing means. That is when water becomes a solid - below 0c (23f).

We also are very familiar with fig trees that will withstand sustained temps of well below this with no damage whatsoever. (branches and root). So to many fig trees that's not freezing. The question is why?

Does a tree maintain an  ability to flush out a level of water during dormancy to prevent damage, yet remain alive? ....A tree more successful at this being one that is more cold hardy?

or perhaps...

The liquids in the tree (sap not all water) have some natural sugar or other content that in effect behave like an antifreeze (Sugar is an antifreeze), keeping the trees moisture from freezing up to a specific temperature below the freezing point of water? So a tree with more of this quality would survive colder temps and those without would not...Just like at -40c even your car antifreeze, freezes

I base nothing I write here on fact or research....just thoughts....
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jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
TorontoJoe -- The questions are well put.  Now we need someone who actually knows something! :)
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
Thanks Joe. The fact is that I'm more speculation and hypothesis than knowledge. I'm still pretty new at this.

I think there's a lot of wisdom on this forum. For me it's a lot of trial and error combined with the experience and experience gained from all the contributing posts....And then more trial and error....

I'm glad this forum exists. I've read mostly sound advice. Like with anything in life there's usually more than one way to do something.

I wish I had more trees with which to experiment come spring. Maybe next year..... None of my theories seem to illustrate to me why a young tree would be more hardy than one more mature....Like a child it has more sensitive tissue? More antifreeze? I don't know....

Joe
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hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #44 
Here you go guys.
http://www.planetfig.com/articles/fareng2589.html
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LeanderFig

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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosierbanana
Here you go guys.
http://www.planetfig.com/articles/fareng2589.html

Great info! Thanks! I think I have come up with a solution to my winter storage problem. This morning my garage was 6f. In an attempt to try to see if the wall attached to the house may be warmer, I put a thermometer right on the wall. Well this morning it read 19f! I was amazed that the wall could radiate that much heat. It was then that I noticed that I had placed the thermometer directly above the crawl space door in the floor. Obviously heat was escaping the cracks around the door, and raising the temperature. So my plan is to put whichever 4 plants I decide to overwinter in the garage next year against the wall over that door and drape a blanket over them to trap enough of the escaping heat to keep the temp around 40f or so.
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TorontoJoe

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Posted Reply with quote  #46 
Really good article. "resin and carbohydrates". That's making a lot of sense.

Thanks
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Guildwood Village - Toronto, Canada
jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #47 
TJ -- I didn't mean to imply any put-down.  I'm in exactly the same boat as you, just trying to learn from our collective experience.  I appreciate your observations.
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrdewhirst
TJ -- I didn't mean to imply any put-down.  I'm in exactly the same boat as you, just trying to learn from our collective experience.  I appreciate your observations.


I didn't perceive it as a put down. I know we're all here to learn. All good. And thank you....
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Zone 6
Guildwood Village - Toronto, Canada
jrdewhirst

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Posted Reply with quote  #49 
from the linked article:  

< In fact, it would be normal to consider that young and vigorous fig plants may be damaged or completely killed by ground frost, when temperatures drop to between -2 and -4°C. 

On the other hand, if it benefits from protection during the first years and succeeds in developing, the fig tree may easily resist temperatures of between -15° and -17°C, and even less for some varieties, when planted in very good locations (-18°C at least). >>

So assuming that this is correct, here is the paradox -- young / non-dormant figs will be killed at -2 to -4C (23 - 28F); older, dormant figs can survive -15 to -17C (1 - 5F) our even lower for good varieties in good locations (0F "at least").  

The words "may easily resist" seem optimistic.  But basic point seems right, given observations here.

One last point:  The article points out that the amount of water that a fig receives late in the growing season impacts its vulnerability.  So we should all interpret our experience through the lens of water received or applied, naturally or artificially.   
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Joe D
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Posted Reply with quote  #50 
Every fig planted in ground would apparently benefit from a stone or brick and mortar "clamshell" windbreak half surround and solar heat sink to protect, capture and then radiate heat back to the plants. We have seen evidence of the apparent benefits of a radiative wall or stone outcropping to one side of an in ground fig; perhaps when considering planting, one should consider such landscape enhancements as basic requirements. I would imagine that even a low espalier planting could benefit during winter from benefits of a heat sink type brick or stone backing running its length...
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Tony S - Zone 6A Carmel, NY
WL-Ischia Black (UCD/USDA), Martinenca, Calderona, Victoria, Craven's Craving, Colonel Littman's Black Cross, Bon Jesusa, Sant Martina, Princesa, Paretjal Negra
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