hmm.. i'll be at stone mountain in oct.. how far do you live from stone mountain, jason?

I hate to be the wet blanket in this party, but that fig lacks many of the characteristics of an Ischia Black (IB). It may still turn out to be a great fig, but not an IB. Here is what Condit said about IB brebas:

"crop fair; fruits medium or above, up to 2-1/4 inches long and 1-3/4 inches in diameter, oblique-pyriform, with a short, thick neck; stalk often 1/2 inch long or more somewhat swollen toward body of the fig; ribs narrow, slightly elevated; eye medium, open, scales purple; color purplish black; bloom conspicuous; meat thin, white, with a violet tinge; pulp strawberry; flavor fairly sweet and rich."

Leaves- mostly 3-lobed. Often 0 (entire).
Leaf Appearance- glossy and rugose (bumpy. what some here refer to as "Mt. Etna look")
Margins- Coarsely crenate (sawtooth)
Upper Margin width- moderate
Upper Margin depth-wide
Base- Truncate to Subcordate

Main crop:
Avg. weight- 30g
Dull surface. Fairly heavy bloom. Scattered white flecks.

"Caprified specimens similar in external characters to the uncaprified ones; pulp dark strawberry; seeds fertile, prominent. (Plate 27, C.)"

I think there are too many significant differences between the well-documented IB and this tree to dismiss as merely a horticultural or regional difference.

Well, Dennis has pictures of the UCD BI.  The leaves seem pretty different...

I will say this, though, Ischia was applied to a number of different figs, and I'd only compare with the UCD version, and not by what Condit sez.  Entire families of closely related figs were put under one name, so forth and on.  I also had idly thought that it could be something close to Early Violet because this was one of those figs that were around in the South before Celeste, but I haven't found enough pics to say one way or another.

I'd also make the contention (bringing my puerh tea judgement skillz), that very high end tasty things tastes very good in a wide range of conditions or preparation methods.  It really should taste obviously great even a couple of days unripe.  Then when you get it just right, you stagger to the knees.

Ok, turning off private messaging here at the forum.  I'm getting hammered for cuttings at this point by PM. 

Please folks, as always, if I have extra cuttings at some point, I'll offer them to the forum with a post at first-come-first-served basis.  Hold off on the PMs and emails, all cuttings are gone.  Thanks!

[QUOTE=The_celt]Nice looking shun you got there
[/QUOTE]

You're not the only cook in the house ;)  I was a huge Henckels fan in my early years, but picked up some Globals a few years back and fell in love with the eastern style blades, finally rested on that Ken Onion a couple years ago.  Spendy purchase ($350?), but worth every penny.  It felt weightless in the hand and cuts like a laser with minimal honing, doesn't matter what you're getting into. 

Side bonus, friend next door is a cutlery fanatic and may-as-well-be-professional sushi chef that specializes in Asian cutlery, and he sharpens us up every few months.  Awesome all around.


[QUOTE=bullet08]hmm.. i'll be at stone mountain in oct.. how far do you live from stone mountain, jason?[/QUOTE]

If you're in Stone Mountain, use Google to measure directions to Atlanta Zoo.  That will put you within a 5-minute ballpark of my place.  Don't have anything on the map for October yet, keep me posted on your plans - note that with a kid and FTJ, I'm usually only free on weekends.

Shah8,

Here is a little background on Dr. Ira J. Condit as written in his monagraph "The Fig":

"Since 1935, he has been Associate Professor and Associate Subtropical Horticulturist at the University of California Citrus Experiment Station, Riverside, where his main project has been the study of fig varieties, their nomenclature and climatic adaptation, and development of new varieties by extensive fig breeding. At the invitation of the California Fig Growers he spent six months in 1923 becoming acquainted with the fig industries of Old World districts, particularly Algeria, Italy, Greece, Turkey, France, Spain and Portugal. During sabbatical leave in 1934-35 he was visiting Professor at Lingnan University, Canton, China, and also visited the Philippines, Formosa, Japan, and Hawaii."

He worked at UCD and UCR for decades.

HA!  Jason, you are the MAN!!!!!  I can't stop laughing.  Have a good one.

Yes the leaves are a little different,but the growing condition ,are different too between Georgia and California!.
It is as close as you can find a tree to be to Ischia Black.
Not only that,but the leaves are also close to Ischia green.

Ha-ha; a typical fig stampede ... Run baby, run ...

>>> Ok, turning off private messaging here at the forum. I'm getting hammered for cuttings at this point by PM.

>>> Please folks, as always, if I have extra cuttings at some point, I'll offer them to the forum with a post at first-come-first-served basis. Hold off on the PMs and emails, all cuttings are gone. Thanks!

Yes, I...know...all...that.

Read the text, and think about what's going on.  Many of his descriptions were second-hand.  There are errors.  Please don't get me wrong, I'm a fruit fanatic.  I have old books from people just like Condit, like Popenoe, Fairchild, and Morton, and they all have their issues.  You have a benchmark.  It's growing right there in UCD, and grows exactly the fig people want. You don't need the book.  You want the fig that tastes as good as that particular Black Ischia, not any accurate Black Ischia, which may well be some other fig not as delightful.

Cheez, if figs were as generally as good as these Provençal and Neapolitan varieties, I would have been much more interested in them as something other than an easy to grow fruit and would have many more trees!  But I don't, and a good reason why is the incredible confusion that surrounds varietal info, and the sheer plasticity of pheonomic expression.  If I wanted to, and I had the camera and all, I could go outside now, and pick leaves that are exactly the same as the ones in the pictures Jason uploaded.  It has entire, three, five, and seven lobes all in that tree, both of them (and Ischia is related to the Bordeaux varieties).  The breba season had fruits that look a whole lot like Barnisotte and Barbentane, and the long, droopy fruit that BLB, among others, got as brebas, are a rarity.  The two once grew differently, and now grow more or less the same.  Figs are confusing.  So once you hit close enough for government work, well, it's time to put down the book, and look at the fig.

Hey George...I'm still laughing!   But all jokes aside, it's all good when someone finds a good fig like that one Jason found.  I found one in May.  The owner gave me a truck load of cuttings for pruning her tree. Apparently, her tree was planted with her house back in the late 1800s.  Her tree fruited 2 weeks ago and is fruiting now.  It's a black fig that's very sweet.  I think her tree is Negronne or VdB but not sure.  I took some pictures of the figs and her tree.  I will start a thread with pictures but before I do, I will turn off private messaging!

Ha!  How bout those figs!!!!!!!

Ruben:The I Condit description is very much in line with the fig Jason Found and not to The actual fig,in the Germaplasm collection.
The fig in Germaplasm collection has 5 lobes well defined and a cordate base.
Jason fig is truncate and has more 3 lobes leaves.
Here is a pix of Actual Ischia Black in my garden:
So,many times taking I Condit Description as fact is like shooting in the dark!

Here is I Condit Description:
Compare it to actual UCD Tree,and then later to Jason found tree,and see for yourself!

Leaves- mostly 3-lobed. Often 0 (entire).
Leaf Appearance- glossy and rugose (bumpy. what some here refer to as "Mt. Etna look")
Margins- Coarsely crenate (sawtooth)
Upper Margin width- moderate
Upper Margin depth-wide
Base- Truncate to Subcordate

Isn't DNA testing the only way to know for sure?

Im going to make some popcorn before I continue to read this thread. Quite frankly if this tree is what some people think it is someone is going to pay for the DNA testing.

Herman,

Jason's find DOES have SOME similarities to the Condit description, but many more differences. The text in bold in post #52 is just SOME of the differences. We must always remember, when referring to Condit's descriptions, that he took his findings from mature, fruit-bearing trees and his leaf descriptions were based on a random sample of 50 leaves from fruit-bearing branches. So, yes, the tree at UCD may also have 5-lobed leaves, but was it on a fruit-bearing branch? And if so, what percentage of those leaves does it have on it's fruit-bearing branches? Apparently, it wasn't enough back in the first half of the 20th century to be considered significant by Condit.

I suggest proceding methodically (with a researcher's curiousity) and good documentation and evaluate Jason's tree objectively, not with haste. We have not even seen the main crop (which may actually be even smaller than this breba. Probably will be the same size).

Lastly, the link to you pic is not working. Thanks!

Jason I now use only 2 brands misono ux10 and kikowichi best I've used ever 

My pix is of a mature bearing tree Brother,That pix show an eight years old tree!.
How old is suppose to be ,when mature:/More than 8!
The fruit bearing branches having something to do with leaf shape that is a mith and doesn't hold water.
The most important leaf details is the number of lobes,and the base,of leaf shape,and in this regard Jason fig is closer to I Condit description,than my eight years old mature enough Ischia Black from UC D Germaplasm.

With all the excitement going on, still don't have a story yet. Who planted it, where it came from, has it been in the family and possibly in other parts of the country.

I wanted to send you a pm, but knew you were going to get nailed to the cross. Shooting for 5 years, by then maybe enough will be propagated to get a cutting or small plant.

We are all like kids in a candy store, drolling over your find. HIP  HIP  HOORAY!!


luke

After two failed visits to reach the homeowner, I'm sending postal mail.  It'll be there by Wednesday, I'll wait for a call.  People are more prone to open mail from a stranger than to open a door with a stranger in the area the tree is located.

Stay tuned.

I still prefer good old German steel. Take care of it and it will cut by itself.

I'll be in Stone Mountain on Oct.19-20. That's for sure. But squeezing time out of it... I'll have to figure out how to do it. If I get lucky, I might have afternoon off on 20th before I drive back up to NC.

[QUOTE=lukeott]

I wanted to send you a pm, but knew you were going to get nailed to the cross. Shooting for 5 years, by then maybe enough will be propagated to get a cutting or small plant.

We are all like kids in a candy store, drolling over your find. HIP  HIP  HOORAY!!
[/QUOTE]

Yep. As someone relatively new to figs, I look upon a discovery like this as I do new movies - I'll wait a few years till they find their way to tv. ;)

But it's exciting and a great deal of fun to read about.

Maybe it's a related variety from Ischia as well?  I am guessing in the island there are sibling trees no doubt?

Hey Jason,

I have a velvet ninja suit I can let you borrow.
It's been passed on from one fig legend to another.

One size fits all, last one had it was Cecil. So you might need a bungie cord to hold your pants up.

Herman,

Again, the link is not working. Thanks!

EDIT: I see it now. There is a hyperlink in the message that does not work. As for the tree pictured, it looks very different from Jason's. It is 8 years old you say? It's obviously struggling with FMV. Can't say it's a great specimen for comparison though. A close-up might help. Though it's unlikely that UCD mixed up the cuttings, it is a possibility (by their own admission). Let's just keep an open mind.

New pixies,of UCD Ischia Black ,and yes the fruits are identical and the dominant leaf shape is very similar,5 lobes,and not three lobes or entire as described by Ira Condit!.
Let the pixies do the talk.
Just like Jason Find!
Pix 4 and 5,Ischia Black fruit,in my garden,and UC Davis pix of fruit and leaf.
You can see that I have the right specimen and the dominant leaf.
And that dominant mature leaf has 5 lobes,and not like I Condit describe it as Three lobes or entire!.

Really, the main reason I'd think it's BI is the fruit.  The fruit, especially the shape and the flesh, does look like what BI should look like.  Leaves are too variable, but the only other fig remotely like it in shape, RdB, doesn't have the same kind of flesh and the leaves are definitely not alike, or the growth habit of the tree (as described by Jason).

I hope lots of cuttings are available in the fall/winter.

If it proves to be IB, what are you going to name it? IBSH? (Ischia Black SatelliteHead) ;)

That would be cool.

Great find Jason, looks like an awesome fig.

If you want to know one little Secret,The south and deep south was loaded in the past with healthy Ischia Black figs,and I am sure there are some old trees all over the south.
The reason was that Ischia Black is super tasty,and resist rain,humidity bugs and heat.
Those trees were imported from Europe not obtained from UCD Germaplasm,so they are quite healthy.
It will be only a matter of time till  a good tree surfaces ,for propagation.

Well, technically, we would need fig hunters in places like Macon and Milledgeville.  Perhaps Savannah, but the coastal climate there probably would be pretty unfriendly to many figs.  Montgomery and Mobile AL probably has old forgotten trees around as well...

Atlanta, remember, was really only a significant national-level city in the South for a very short while.  Places like Birmingham used to be more important and in very much living memory, and in the general underdevelopedness of the South, attractive jobs was widespread among many places rather than coalescing until Atlanta and Charlotte/Research Triangle started booming.

There were lots of Maltas and Early Violets, too.  The fancy french figs were rarer, but did apparently exist in Ga.

I have to say that this is probably a horrible fig and eating a fig with white spots will give you ebola.  It isn't true but there has to be some way to keep Jason from being deluged.  And after you're done reading that link, Look to the right and read all of "the best of".  They're unbelievably funny.

I found it very fascinating, based on Herman's post, that a small Island off the coast of Napoli, would have so many tree cuttings make it  to America.

I grew up in a heavy Italian community in Southern Queens that extended into LI. Most of the people I grew up with were either Sicilian or Napolitan.

Even while growing up and visiting Italia we would go to Sorrento, up and down the Amalfi coast. Growing up in the shadow of Mt Vesuvius, my father never once uttered the name of Ischia.

So I find it very fascinating that so many from the island made it to the South.

Dominick:It was that we had luck,because of an well to do ,English nursery Owner that visited the Island in the 18th Century,and he brought cuttings of a handful of figs off the island.
They did have name other than Ischia but he lost the tags ,on his way to England and so when they fruited ,he tagged them Ischia ,Black Green and white,and possible Yellow,I am not sure,about last one.
From England they made their way here to the US,later.

Thanks- Now it makes more sense.

Dominick:Ischia Island is world renown for Hot mineral spring  bath,that is good for people with degenerative bone disease, AND RHEUMATISM,but only the rich people of Europe go there to take advantage of them.
I would like to go there ,as it would be good for my sciatica and my back surgery recovery,but ,When I save enough money,LOL.
There are 2 islands well known in that area,The Capri island,that is  made for lovers,and the Ischia Island ,that is visited by old F--ts.

Yeah I have read that on the internet. Play ground of the European rich.

Why does every one talk about condit being the end all be all? He only wrote about what he saw in Cali. Even that was wrong most of the time. What about Vallese, Eisen, Baud,Pons or Bauwens? These men traveled and looked and studied. Condit  kinda picked up seeds and planted them. I will an O'Rouk hybred over a condit any day. All he did was copy what others wrote 45 years befor him.

How did he describe figs in Italy from his couch in Cali? 

Dan, think you nailed what I was just going to say. AMEN Brother

Herman, when we visited Capri 2 years ago, my wife went shopping for handbags and I went off exploring the terrain for fig trees. I came across several huge fig trees on private properties that were reachable from the side-walk. I couldn't help myself and snagged a few cuttings. Unfortunately, they did not root but I still have great memories of that day.
We did not get a chance to go to Ischia. There are inexpensive day tours for both islands, Sorrento and many other nearby beautiful locations... a true fig heaven. 
Next time we visit the Amalfi coast we will definitely go to Ischia and you can guess what I will be doing while my wife hunts for bags.

Frank

Dan,

Apparently you did not read post #56. Here are a few more reasons that may help you understand: http://www.raysfiginfo.com/newyank.html  . It's easy for backyard gardeners like us to tear down an expert when you don't have to worry about little things like evidence, provenance or documentation.

Frank:Fig tree lives a long time,I am sure there are more of those fig trees on that island right now.
To Dan:Yes ,O'Rourke hybrids,are indeed selected,one can see ,selection work was done there,and that is WHY ,all of them are at least satisfactory,in taste and flavor,and most of them are super tasty.

Unfortunately the backyard gardeners are growing more than one fig now adays and making our own observations his method of describing leaves is great. But for an expert he sure made quite a few mistakes. I'm sorry but some people feel like he's the fig messiah.

Nelson:Amen to that!
What my problem with Ira Condit is,here I will explain.
As educated as he was,being in his position as decider,when the Great Britain,send,to UCD,cuttings from the Entire collection,the Royal Horticultural Society had,he ordered the cuttings to be grafted to existent older Caprifig,in multiple numbers on one tree,in order to make fruits so he can get pollinated fruits and so new Hybrids out of them.
When that was done every branch that grew was infected with Fig Mosaic virus.
How hard would have been to just root and plant the cuttings ,that later would have become clean trees,and if some would have been very good like Black Ischia,just spread them around to Farmer,willing to grow a Orchard.
After that was done ,then he would have experimented as much as he wanted,When USA was planted with superior cultivars.
The way he acted seem to be ,intentional,to infest the cuttings so nobody will be able to grow those cultivars,and so to be obligated to grow his hybrids,which by the way were planted from seeds in ground and even tho in California do not have the cocktail of Viruses that the cultivars from England does have.
I know it as a fact because I grew many of his hybrids and they grow very well,and they are healthy.

It's very cool to find a tree right in your neighborhood.  I haven't seen any here in my area, at least growing in the ground.  There are a lot of Italian families in the next borough over.  I did hear a story from a colleague about an older Italian man carting his trees outdoors earlier in the season.  I'm looking forward to going back to NYC to keep an eye out for their trees.

[QUOTE=go4broek]Dan,

Apparently you did not read post #56. Here are a few more reasons that may help you understand: http://www.raysfiginfo.com/newyank.html  . It's easy for backyard gardeners like us to tear down an expert when you don't have to worry about little things like evidence, provenance or documentation.[/QUOTE]

Ruben, Completely missed post #56 didn't realize he had actually gone into other contries to do research. Lesson learned read before you post lol.

Is there any speculation what Black Ischia really might be in name on the island or elsewhere?  I find it hard to believe that only one person ever brought it off the island.  While the answers may be varied, maybe it is possible that someone knows what it's called without knowing what it's called.

Herman -

Totally off-topic, I just noticed that almost all of your posts have the word "Ischia" hotlinked to SurfCanyon with search suggestions.

SurfCanyon is a browser add-on that a lot of people see as "bad".  If it's not something you are aware is on your computer, instructions to remove it are here:

http://www.surfcanyon.com/faq.jsp#q4

It is OK Jason:It comes with Mozilla Firefox browser,I like it because if I want to by something off a seller,it tells me other places I can get the item ,sometimes for much less money.
It compare prices,for a said Item.