I would like to get some feedback on individual named or unknown cultivars and the flavor groups (new or existing) to which you believe they should belong. I'm well aware that taste is subjective, but I think these grouping would help to decrease the confusion between some of named and unknown cultivars in circulation.
These Groupings are not a standard, but have been discussed in the past on the forum, and I personally have been using these groupings to choose cultivars (the best and more readily available in each group for my location).


Preliminary Fig Cultivar list

"Flavor Groups" are;

Sugar...
Sugar sweet, ranging from lightly sweet to very sweet with added flavor from light maple to brown sugar and range from simple to complex additional flavors. Fig flavor can range from none to strong.Seed crunch can range from none to strong with nutty flavor.
A. Celeste*, improved Celeste*, Southern Brown Turkey*

B. English Brown Turkey, O'Rourke, Italian Ever-bearing, Sal's Corleone, Palermo Red, Sicilian Red, Panevino Dark, Aldo, Weeping Black, Brunswick, Magnolia, Paradiso.

C. California Brown Turkey, Black Jack, , Etc.


Honey...
Honey sweet, ranging from lightly sweet to very sweet with rich (creamy) and or complex additional flavors. Fig flavor can range from none to light. Seed crunch can range from none to strong with nutty flavor.
A. Italian Honey*, Lattarula*,

B. Atreano, Brooklyn White, White Marseilles, Gold, Hollier, Champagne

C. Kadota, Dotatto, Etc.


Adriatic Berry...
Sugar sweet, ranging from lightly sweet to very sweet with berry flavor, yellow or green skin and usually red pulp, with more complex additional flavors developing when fully ripe. Fig flavor can range from none to light. Seed crunch can range from none to strong with nutty flavor.
B. Green Ischia, Conadria,

C. Adriatic JH, Battaglia Green, Green Greek, Adriatic, Strawberry Verte, CalVert, Vasilika Sika, Stella, Etc.


Bordeaux Berry...
Sweet, with a berry taste which is rich with a slightly complex additional flavors, when ripe (jammy interior), other wise it has a standard Dark Flavor. Fig flavor can range from none to light. Seed crunch can range from none to strong with nutty flavor.
A. Ronde de Bordeaux,

B. Violet de Bordeaux, Mission, Vista, Petite Negri, Beers black,

C. Valle Negra, Noir de Caromb, Kathleen Black, Etc.


Dark Berry...
Mildly sweet to very sweet,some degree of berry flavor, and some degree of acidity, some with complex additional flavors. Fig flavor can range from none to some (medium). Seed crunch can range from none to strong with nutty flavor.
A. Marsailles Black VS*, Tacoma Violet*,

B. Hardy Chicago, Sal EL, Gino's Black, Portuguese Black, Maltese falcon,

C. Dark Sicilian, Papa John, Scotts Black, Etc.


Exotic Berry?.  ; ) (New Group)
B.  Fico Preto,

C. Black Madeira, Ischia Black, Etc.

Legend: A = Early, B=Mid Season, C=Late Ripening, * = Cold Hardy

Pete, I'm glad you posted this.  I've been trying to do something similar so as I collect (or eliminate) varieties so that I have a good balance between the taste groups as well as other characteristics (like timing of ripening).  It's probably about as good as you can do with just 5 categories.  Pretty much all green figs with red pulp (Paradiso Gene, Atreano, Col de dame Blanc) would have to go into the adriatic type, correct?

Here is a similar thread from about a year ago. Becoming familiar with some of the various groupings is helpful to avoid some over-lap. Before I knew better, I purchased essentially the same fig under different names more than once.



http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/families-of-similar-figs-5994245

'Families' of similar figs

Etna type--Hardy Chicago, etc...

Mission type--Noire de Caromb, Kathleen Black, etc...

Madeira type--BM, Black Tuscan, Preto, etc...

Sari Lop Descendents--Tena, Sierra, Sequoia, etc...

Col de Dame variants

Recent Hybrids unclassified, like UCR 160-50, Scott's Black, etc

shah8, I think Pete was trying to do the flavor sorting. This helps to collect the differently tasting figs and avoid the duplicates, as I understood.

A Mission will not taste like Pastiliere.

Rewton,
This topic is based more on taste, but yes, I have added ripening times, interior & exterior color and other characteristics for my personal list. Actually Atreano was included in my Honey Group and Col de Dame Blanc would be in the Adriatic Group due to the taste.

Gina,
Thanks for the posting the link, That is one of the earlier discussions to which I referred, But that is based on Family Groups. This is based on taste.

Shah8,
Flavor Groups are less numerous than Family Groups, and Creating or categorizing in Flavor groups was my reason for this topic. The Flavor groups was really based on Common figs, but can include a separate category for Smyrna Types that need caprification.  There also could be a "Exocit Group" for Black Madeira, Black Ischia and Fico Preto, they would currently fall in the Dark or Sugar groups. The Hybrids still fall within the initial 5 groups.

I agree that a mission may not taste like a Pastilliere, but the Mission is already grouped. How does a Pastilliere taste?  What's your opinion on its group placement? and Yes this is discounting rich complex taste and after tastes.

Greenfig,
Yes, thanks, that is actually one of the goals. Once grouped, the more popular (easily available) cultivars can be acquired. Also Unknowns can be easily grouped.

Pete:

You're on to something. 

Actually, this grouping-by-taste concept, would be a great help.  Why grow different, named-variety trees, that all have "similar" tasting figs?  Personally, I don't have the space for five "blacks" that will ultimately taste the same. 

It would be nice to see figs grouped by taste, and climate zones.  So, if I want a green fig that ripens in Zone-7b....I could just go to a reference catagory/listing of similar tasting figs, and pick one/two varieties that will ripen in my climate.  Why pick a long-season fig that does well in California, if I live on the East-Coast?

We group fig varieties by/for various climates and regions, on this forum....why not by taste groups?  I think we can all agree that there are taste similarities between many of the available, fig varieties.


Frank

Kudos Pete,
Before I read your earlier posts I, like Gina, bought several of the same type trees with different names. This grouping is invalueable especially to people new to the hobby. I think we all want to try everything when we start and with these groupings we can try something from each group. I am so glad you put this together and can't wait to see them with even longer lists of specific names.

Frank,
Thanks for commenting.
The ripening times can be a subset of each flavor group, A, B or C can represent ripening times, A for early, B for mid season and C for late.

Tami,
Thanks for commenting.
The flavor group information was actually originated long before I became a member, the information was posted in older topics. When I started to research growing figs, I spent weeks reading old post and gathering information on fig cultivation and cultivars from this website. I then used the original five (5) Flavor Groups as a guide with the posted recommendations of members in my Zone, Herman2 in NJ as an example. I then set about purchasing the more readily available (common) cultivars. Due to this, I have tasted at least one cultivar(from my own trees)in each flavor group all within the first year.

Thanks Pete for starting this thread. I too have bought the "same" variety with different names. I'm also very interested in the taste of the fig - being one of the most important factors for me. I know taste is subjective , that's why I like to read everyone's descriptions on the taste according to them. One of the reasons I also love heirlooms . People saved those trees , transported them , I have to believe, for the taste they loved.
This thread can only help me make better choices for what I'd like to have growing . 

So do the Bordeaux types have a rich flavor profile , or?
Dark - berry? 
Exotic- complex? 
Please expound on the flavor description of each category also.

I like the ripening time subset too .

All this is a very informative , thanks again Pete.

Pattee,
Thanks for commenting.
IMO.
Sugar are sugar sweet, ranging from lightly sweet to very sweet with added flavor from light maple to brown sugar and range from simple to complex additional flavors. Fig flavor can range from none to strong... (My strongest fig flavor to date has been California Brown Turkey)

Honey are honey sweet, ranging from lightly sweet to very sweet with rich (creamy) and or complex additional flavors. Fig flavor can range from none to light.

Adriatic are sugar sweet, ranging from lightly sweet to very sweet with berry flavor, yellow or green skin and usually red pulp, with more complex additional flavors developing when fully ripe. Fig flavor can range from none to light.

Bordeaux are sweet, with a berry taste which is rich with a slightly complex additional flavors, when ripe (jammy interior), other wise it has a standard Dark Flavor. Fig flavor can range from none to light.

Dark have some degree of berry flavor, and range from mildly sweet to very sweet, with some degree of acidity, some with complex additional flavors. Fig flavor can range from none to some (medium).

I have not tasted any of the Exotic cultivars, so I don't know the flavor profile, thats why I started this topic : ). You're welcome.

Could you just make a few major family groups.????.....Black Mission Family = Dark Figs.... Kadota Family = Green Honey Figs,
Vista = Black Figs with Berry Taste, Strawberry Verte=Green figs with berry taste.++++++++++++++Just a suggestion to classify them in to
a limited amount of groups.   Also it would be nice to delete some old names, been seeing a lot of the same fig with multiple names.
Very Confusing.?????

Not to complicate things but Cajun Dan's blog also discusses categorizing figs by the flavor and proposes a similar grouping:
http://cajunfigs.blogspot.com/2012/05/choosing-figsby-their-taste.html

I do like the addition of the A, B, C subcategories for ripening.

i have decided to go with what others have decided sometime ago. "the good, the bad, and the ugly". the good are the ones that taste good to me, the bad are ones that tastes bad to me.. the ugly.. well.. they are just ugly, but sometimes that taste good.

I like that...LOL   The Good the Bad and the Ugly.....Great Stuff..LOL

Rodney,
This topic is to get feedback for "Flavor Groups", information on "Family Groups" can be found in the forum archives. Your flavor groupings are actually already listed, by Flavor Group first then Cultivar. Once the Flavor Groups are compiled it would be a simple Edit for you to add Family Groupings.
I cant "delete old names", that is the responsibility of those with authority.

Rewton,
I take no credit for creating the flavor groupings, Dan_LA was one of the members that posted the information on flavor groups in the Figs4Fun Forum archives and Garden Web archives. I used that information to my benefit and started this topic to help spread the info. It has worked for me, and I had created Spreadsheets with all pertinent info, tracking actual ripening dates, taste, colors, hardiness, Visible health, plant location and source for all the cultivars that I'm currently growing, including all the re-discovered unknowns. Attached is a picture of a partial list from June of this year.
 

Pete,
"Good" and "Ugly" are usually easy recommendations to follow, sometimes "Bad" is another person's "Good", based on taste, which is subjective. Growth habits on the other hand are objective and can mean the difference between harvesting edible ripe figs and not having any figs to eat.

Maybe add an asterisk for known cold hardy varieties as well?

Travis,
Thanks for commenting.
I'm looking for cultivars to add to taste groups, but I will include the asterisks.
You may notice a pattern, the early cultivars may also be the Cold Hardy Cultivars.

Thanks Rewton and Pete.....

Pete, you and I have be talking informally about these "Groups".  I like this!  Thanks for the reminder.  This is tougher to do than one thinks!  When I think of a flavor group, I like the names "Sugar" or " Honey" or "Berry" because they describe a figs' taste.  Taste could also be a category by itself.  But then not all people have the same taste buds.  Then I was thinking..... the flavor name "Honey" should be for those that have a honey flavor or drips honey from its eye when ripe like Alma or Excel.  But none of my White Marseilles or Atreano figs do that.  They just taste like a soft sweet fig.  Kadota, Alma, Dottato, Excel, Peter's Honey and a few others fit this category.  Do you see my point?  Adriatic to me is not a flavor but just a group.  And for those whom never tasted Adriatic would not have a clue how this fig would taste.  Howard Garrison at UCD thinks their Adriatic fig taste like coconut!  I've eaten several UCD Adriatic figs and I have not had one that tasted like coconut!  To me, it taste like a very rich berry.

And the "Dark(Black)" group puzzles me.  I didn't say I did not like it.  It just confuses me because Black Fig 1 at UCD is not a black fig.  GO FIGURE!  According to UCD the word "black" just means not green which to me could be just about any thing!  HA!

I see where you're going with the "Bordeaux" group.  But I don't like the name.  "Mission type" might be a better fit.

I think I'll use your list and tweak it a little to my liking.  I might put sub groups under these like:

Group ID:  1
Group name:  Mission
SubTaste ID: 11
SubTaste name:  Rich sweet black raspberry
Fig Name:  Violete de Bordeaux
Sweetness scale:  8  
How good is it:  PASS OUT GOOD

How bout those figs!!!!!!

Dennis,
Thanks for commenting.
Its as complicated as we make it!
You are correct Sugar and Honey are almost self explanatory, The other Groups should probably have "Berry" as a postscript, as in Adriatic Berry, Bordeaux Berry and Dark Berry Flavors : ).
Rating the individual cultivars sweetness can be done after the Grouping list is compiled and is often subjective, but Brix ratings can be measured and attached to each of the cultivars within the groups...

The easiest way to assemble this groupings is actually in a table format with columns and rows. The rows would be the Cultivars and columns would be added for each desired listed characteristic or notation. Its much easier to see and visualize (follow).

Group ID:/ Group name:/ SubTaste ID:/ Sub Taste Name:         / Fig Name:               / Sweetness scale:/ How good is it: 
1             / Mission         / 11                / Rich sweet black berry / Violet de Bordeaux / 8                         / PASS OUT GOOD
1             / Mission         / 11                / Rich sweet raspberry   / Aubique Petite        / 8                         / SIT DOWN GOOD

While I've had mission with some berry taste, I find mission to be very different from bordeauxs, with sweet pith, much more molasses taste, and lacking in terms of positive skin qualities like aromatics.

I know, I know, different tastebuds, but...

/pedant.

Shah8,
Thanks for commenting.
sweet pith?...
Molasses is in the sugar flavor group. : )
Yes its subjective, but it will always be the case.

/Figs4fun

I would be keen to know where does Ronde de Bordeaux fit in?

Great idea and endeavor to try to organize these like this.

I do agree I think Mission has to be separated from VdB these are a bit different flavor categories I would say.

You can put Kathleen's Black in the Mission, and based on what I hear Maltese Falcon with Mission too.

You can put Ronde that a member just asked about with VdB.

Martino,
Thanks for commenting.
I've put it with the Bordeaux for now.

Persianmd2orchard,
Thanks for commenting.
Although mission is a popular cultivar, its basic taste profile is similar to Bordeaux with its added "Rich" tastes when properly ripened. I have no descriptions or first hand knowledge of the taste of Maltese Falcon, so initially it would be placed in the Dark group.

Thanks, guys.

I have been thinking of getting an RdB because the comments I have been reading of it really makes it out of this world.  However, the price is prohibitive.  Hence I am really keen to know what is its nearest equivalent in taste?  And if it is just like VdB, then I will convince myself not to splurge on it.

Thanks for starting topic ascpete,
it is very useful for us....

Pete I agree actually and it's all relative. Very nice to have it organized like this. Mission certainly tastes more like VdB than say a Kadota. To me and I'm actually generally a lumper--its just enough sufficiently different in flavor I think and theres a bunch of varieties that taste very similar to it and a bunch that taste very similar to VdB that you could split em up pretty easily. But I definitely see the virtue in keepin em together too :). You can put Hollier in with Celeste too if you like.

Are you sure Sals Corleone/Palermo Red/Aldos are "sugar" profile? I have no idea just wondering if that's for sure?

@Martino RdB has thinner skin, smaller fruit and spherical (not elongated), a bit more cold hardy, and earlier season compared to VdB. VdB tastes fantastic if you want to start with that one.

Martino,
VDB is readily available, prolific, is easy to grow and is a very good tasting fig as has been posted by many Forum members.

Asep,
You're welcome.

persianmd2orchard,
IMO, Hollier is closer to the honey group than the sugar, same with LSU Gold. Yes, Sals Corelone and clones are closer to the sugar group, and a good Brown Turkey in flavor.

Thanks again Pete for takin a stab at this! Good to know Sals corleone is in that sugar group. I'm assuming that's based on first hand tasting?

Is your Hollier based on first hand tasting too? Because I ate a few recently and was surprised (was expecting honey but got sugar). I'm using Kadota as my honey standard when I say honey and celeste as my sugar standard when I say sugar. I also recently asked someone if LSU Gold is closer to celeste or Kadota in flavor... have you tasted LSU Gold first hand? I was surprised at LSU Gold pedigree because it looks more like it will taste like a Kadota but has Celeste blood in it so I don't know. I was assured though it tastes more like a Kadota...

I know this is all crazy subjective--but I think we're on to something--kind of--with these groupings.

Maltese Falcon I heard from respected member that has grown it more than most, that's similar taste group as mission/kathleens black. KB and MF are both large and amongst the best mission types. With KB seeming to be better adapted for us in Virginia.

Also with Hollier its quite pinkish on the interior like a Celeste it seems more than amber I found not that that always correlates with flavor... but it looks more sugar if you look at it closely and tasted more sugar to me recently. Unless I had the wrong fig! But all those LSU guys are tasting more to me like Celestes than Kadotas these days--doesn't surprise me too much given the pedigree of the LSUs and their aesthetics.

I'm starting to keep them organized in my mind as just categories of Celeste, Kadota, Mission, VdB, Hardy Chicago, Adriatic since those aren't hard for ppl to get a chance to sample to see what the category tastes like. It's not as fun to to simply say this new fig x tastes like a celeste or hardy chicago... it's more fun to really focus on the subtleties and nuances of the flavor notes perhaps... but honestly I think these categories help a lot and theres so much variation even amongst fruit on the same tree that a lot of the very specific nuances can mislead you from what the overall profile of the fig is. I think this helps a lot, bravo for takin a stab!

pete, where would you place morle paradissio?  when left on tree  close to wrinkling, the peach taste is overwhelming. no berry taste, little fig taste.

In trying to assimilate all the info available through the fig forum, it appears that we have two distinct reasons for combing through all the information we have on cultivars.  

One need is to identify an unknown variety or at least to be able to narrow the choices down to the most likely family to which this plant belongs.  To do this job, the most important characteristics are growth characteristics and appearance characteristics with taste characteristics being the last set of characteristics we examine.

The second major reason to sort though all the information we have is to select what cultivars we want to grow or add to our collections. In this case the most important characteristics are going to be things like taste, fruit color, seasonality (early, mid-season, late) hardiness characteristics and climate considerations (high humidity, desert conditions) with considerations like leaf shape or petiole color not major considerations. So the search criteria are almost of the reverse in importance to of those used to identify a cultivar. 

The Analyst in me says that if we can agree on the characteristics required for each job and a reasonable number sub-characteristic for each major characteristic, it would be possible to develop an application/tool which allowed users to drill down to get a list of candidate cultivars for either purpose.

Anyhow, its food for thought. I would be willing to work toward developing these tools or organizing data if the group decided to try to develop something like this.

I hate to ask to add another variety to the grouping but Brunswick, with all its faults when growing in humid/rainy areas, is historically an important variety.  I used to have a Brunswick variant and consider it to be a good example of a honey fig - not sure if everyone agrees with this though.

Persianmd2orchard,
IMO, Hollier, Champagne and Gold are more honey than sugar. My initial fig reference taste was Hardy Chicago, all sampled figs were compared to its taste last year.

Susie,
I am not familiar with the Morle Paradiso, but other Paradisos  are similar to Brunswicks, so that puts it in the Sugar group.


Marianna,
I actually had reconsidered my initial statement about adding the family groups to the list. I plan on adding several categories and creating an Excel spreadsheet that will be posted to this topic for anyone to copy, I will also add an Acrobat format. Anyone else can copy the spreadsheet and convert to a database format for easy searching. I've also added an availability column with a rating from 1 to 10. 1 being as easy to find as hen's teeth. The same with vendors, 1 being private collectors and 10 being available commercially almost everywhere.




Rewton,
Brunswick  has been added to the Sugar group.

Very nice, thanks.

Best,
Tam

awesome. great work, pete.

The Preliminary PDF document. The fig cultivars (varieties) available from Encanto farms are not yet included and will be added. Comments for additional column categories are welcomed, since this is a work in progress.

Hi Pete, very informative thanks for posting. The White Triana I believe should belong to the number 2 category (Honey) I got mine from Joe Morle at Figtrees.net. It is a very sweet fig.

 Pete

pete, here's a silly little aside. my theory is that to find the true taste of any fig, it needs to be a bit dehydrated. most of our members are forced by weather to grab their figs as soon as just ripe. according to said theory, differences between varieties will be blurred.

unfortunately, there's no way to check if i'm right.

so, i'm just talking. but, i am cheering you on.

Pete (PHD),
Thanks. The format is an Excel spreadsheet and an eventual database format that can be easily edited and updated. Hopefully it can be proofed by members before its initial posting. I will edit the White Triana.

Susie,
I agree with you about the taste differing based on the degree of ripeness and or dessication. Most of the figs tasted this year were sweetest (developed the most sugars) just before the fully ripe stage, when the pulp is still not 100% translucent (jammy). Past that stage they start to develop more complex flavors. and in several cases (cultivars) they start to ferment (sour). I have been trying to compare actual fig flavors and taste when the figs are at that almost ripe stage (the pulp is only 75-85% translucent).

boy pete, that's a hard target you have there.

um, if you get a chance, i'd luv to know which cultivars tend to sour, so i could avoid them.  i wanna try for the complex flavors, so those that sour i need to stay away from.

Susie,
With a little trial and error, you will be able to tell when they are just to your taste. I posted a few pictures to an earlier topic on ripeness. The figs that soured are usually ones that have open eyes, or are large enough that the bottom (ostiole end) ripens well before the top and starts to sour before the whole fig is ripe, this usually happens in more humid environments. Actually that can be a Category...Eye Size. The usual remedy is to pick them early, San Pedro (California Brown Turkey) is one such cultivar, that's why it gets a bad rep.

IMO the best compromise ripeness for sugars and complex flavors.

thank you for the open eye tip, pete. if they need to be picked early, i'd rather avoid them entirely. the only advantage i have is the ability to let figs fully ripen due to lack of rain.

Pete, Thanks for the pdf, it is a great project! How does a number in the Vendors column (right most) relate to the Vendor's list (at the very bottom)?

Greenfig,
You're welcome.
1 ... Private Collectors
2 ... Private Collectors and Encanto Farms Nursery
3 ... or more Private Collectors and Encanto Farms and Vendors

It doesn't relate to the individual vendors by their number, it refers to "How many".
The actual Vendor can be added in a separate column, but I have decided not to do that, it can be added and customized by individuals. Also the actual fig varieties sold by the listed vendors are the fig varieties listed on the sheet.

Pete,
Thanks for the explanation but somehow I have a hard time understanding what you said.
Can you tell me what is 3/4 for the Wuhan, for example:

 180 Wuhan Purple-Brown Amber M 1 7   3 4

 129 Paradiso Genvoa

Greenfig,
Thanks for commenting
UC Davis repository is not a vendor, but their listing can be easily added to the spreadsheet, that is the reason for creating it.

Number: 180
Name: Wuhan
Fig exterior: Purple-Brown
Fig Interior: Amber
Fig Size: Medium
Taste group: 1 (sugar)
Coldest Zone: 7
Commercial Availability: 3 (Private Collectors plus 2 other sources)
Commercial Vendor: 4 (Private Collectors plus 3 other sources)

That typo is not a typo, that is how it was listed on the vendors website..