Inspiration for this experiment came mainly from this thread 

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=7193772&pid=1289458194#post1289458194

and a few other places. I thank the contributors for sharing their experience and hope this works!

Having killed Preto, Galicia Negra and Black Madeira cuttings last winter, among others, which I attribute to too much moisture and too little aeration in small, non perforated cups, I'm specifically seeking a media in a larger, breathable container that's inexpensive, locally obtainable and works well to act just the opposite as the killing scenario.  

Note that all these desirable varieties rooted and leafed, just as everything else but then suddenly died.  Fungus gnats may have been a contributing factor but why these losses amid many other successes when all were treated equally?

I believe this calcined clay material in a cloth grow bag will do it.  When saturated then drained, it remains moist but doesn't keep a very wet surface for very long.  They say these varieties are more difficult to keep alive and lesser wet media than typically common varieties seems to be the survival factor, as I gather from various comments in different places.

This isn't a quick idea I just conjured up but have done quite a bit of reading for awhile now to try and fix this problem, I and many others seem to have regarding the rare varieties. 

Why don't I just stick it into one of the wicking sand buckets since all the other are now shown to be rooting?  Yes I asked myself that.  Well, that still may happen since I have two Preto cuttings still in the bag in the fridge.  If the others in that experiment continue and leaf out, then I will probably add a Preto and others since I have another light and lots of buckets!

It's an idea stuck in my head and so I have to try it to get it out of my head. Using the Oil Dry brand of absorbent, available at my local WalMart for $4.22 @ 25 lbs.

In a side-by-side comparison with Safe T Sorb from Tractor Supply for $6.29 @ 40 lbs., the Oil Dry was less dusty and less smaller particles per volume were passed through a standard window screen so basically I gather it's a better deal, having the most usable portion for the cost.  The Safe T Sorb also has a kerosene odor when saturated and I'm afraid to use it.

The Oil Dry was put into a gallon size cloth grow bag from the local hydro shop for $1.25 each and soaked in a glass jug overnight, containing a gallon of fertigation water, General Hydroponics FloraMato 10-6-18 water soluble, 1/4 tsp per gallon as directed for cuttings.  The guy at the shop said it was good for rooting as well as veg growth.

One Preto cutting about 5.5 inches long and a little bigger diameter than a pencil was buried horizontally in trench about 1 inch deep scooped out in the clay and covered, patted down slightly and covered with a couple of discs that were cut out from a tyvek priority mail envelope to allow breathing but also to help keep the surface clay from drying out too fast.

Soaking the granules in a 2.5 gallon, wide mouth glass cookie jar from WalMart.  I'll use this same jar to dip the bag later on when needed.  My theory is, since this stuff takes awhile to become fully saturated, noted by tiny bubbles rising to the surface for hours when submerged, later on I should be able to give the whole bag a quick dip, drain and the granules will soak in any remaining surface moisture in a short time.  I think the delicate roots don't like any surface pooling wetness like is on the side of a cup or other types of media that only hold moisture on the surface of the granules.



Bag with cutting planted, sitting on a cedar wood block in my room, next to the wicking sand bucket experiment where the temperature is around 80 F consistently at the moment.  A safety pin is placed on opposite sides of the bag that align with cutting orientation.

 

Tyvek discs in place.  Left a small tab on each for easy removal.  The name tag is a tyvek strip cut from the same envelope, marked with a permanent marker.  These have lasted well on all my outdoor potted plants this year.

 

The wood will keep any excess moisture wicked away from the bottom of the bag.

 

Now we wait.  Welcome to the experiment. :)

Good luck.

The oil dry doesn't get mushy when wet ?

Good luck Charlie.

[QUOTE=figpig_66]The oil dry doesn't get mushy when wet ?[/QUOTE]

No.  Unlike natural clay kitty litter, this stuff is like kiln fired so it's a lot harder, more durable.  You can break or smash it with some effort but just letting it sit there it stays good.  For how long remains to be known.

Hi Charlie,
Good luck with this newest experiment. I really enjoy your work. Its a lot of fun to follow and you are constantly coming up with new and interesting methodology.
Rock On !

Charlie, thanks for your creativity! I hope this works out well. Keep us posted.

Thanks charlie

Keep on experimenting Charlie, you are an inspiration to all of us hobbyists, you make the forum enjoyable.

Changed title to reflect a slight change in the experiment.  It's no longer Preto alone.  What was I thinking? Can't have just one! :)

 

I'm not sure how difficult these varieties are supposed to be so we'll just go with it and see if they make it.
 

So, no Preto at all?

You go Charlie! Love these experiments, they are very useful to us all! I recently bought a bag of the SafeT sorb from tractor supply myself but have not opened it yet.. Now I'm thinking I may take it back if you said it has a kerosene smell.. That cant be a good thing for the cuttings :(

[QUOTE=greenfig]So, no Preto at all?[/QUOTE]

Preto is still here.  Just gave her some company.  Removed tyvek cover this morning and see how the tyvek kept the surface from drying out completely yet the outer edges that weren't covered well are drying. I like the color change moisture indicator!  Also good to know the direction the cutting is laying so we can poke around in the clay and see the moisture level. 

   

[QUOTE=Jamie0507]You go Charlie! Love these experiments, they are very useful to us all! I recently bought a bag of the SafeT sorb from tractor supply myself but have not opened it yet.. Now I'm thinking I may take it back if you said it has a kerosene smell.. That cant be a good thing for the cuttings :([/QUOTE]

GregMartin burned the hydrocarbon odors off his floor dry in a fire somehow, in the inspiration post.  I'm not set up to do that, though I do have a large stainless steel pot that would suffice, just I don't have a fire pit or burn barrel yet.  I suggest cutting a neat slit in the bag, remove some of the product, get it wet and smell it.  Yours may be different and not have any odor.  If you still want to return it put a piece of clear tape over the slit in the bag. 

I have used the Tractor Supply brand in a soil mix, noted no odor. Wonder if what you noted would vaporize and disappear if you spread some out in a thin layer in the sun?

Igor, didn't you root some cuttings directly in Turface outdoors?

[QUOTE=eboone]I have used the Tractor Supply brand in a soil mix, noted no odor. Wonder if what you noted would vaporize and disappear if you spread some out in a thin layer in the sun?[/QUOTE]

Had not thought of that but will sure try!  

Right now testing the wicking ability of dry Oil Dry.  The red line indicates the water level in the pie plate.  It has wicked up this much water into the clay in the cup in 30 minutes.

 

If it continues and fills the cup, I'm not sure what will come of it but it's kind of interesting to me just to know.

Charlie, I know this is cheap and low-tech, but I'm starting some cuttings in course biochar (charcoal, from brush in my case).  It seems to looks like coarse perlite to me (in structure).  I doubt it will stay too wet, and if there is about 4 or more inches of charcoal above the rooting cutting, even in an outside (relatively dry humidity environment), the cutting should stay slightly damp and not dry out.

You can easily make this biochar at home in large quantities (provided you have limbs and brush around).  The only potential problem I can see is that if there is too much ash in the char, the pH might be too far off.

The good news about charcoal is that it seems to be death to various pathogens.  Maybe it will help rot & diseases.

[QUOTE=FinleyFigs]Charlie, I know this is cheap and low-tech, but I'm starting some cuttings in course biochar (charcoal, from brush in my case).  It seems to looks like coarse perlite to me (in structure).  I doubt it will stay too wet, and if there is about 4 or more inches of charcoal above the rooting cutting, even in an outside (relatively dry humidity environment), the cutting should stay slightly damp and not dry out.

You can easily make this biochar at home in large quantities (provided you have limbs and brush around).  The only potential problem I can see is that if there is too much ash in the char, the pH might be too far off.

The good news about charcoal is that it seems to be death to various pathogens.  Maybe it will help rot & diseases.[/QUOTE]

Eric that sounds interesting.  You'll have to school me on that.  

We'll see if it works :)  After talking to you, I was on the serious hunt for wood chips, but out here in the wilderness they are hard to find!  The closest place I think I can get them from is over an hour away.  But I have access to free sawmill slabs just a couple miles away that I can turn into charcoal- so if it works, I will feel quite blessed.

My wood chip compost pile has been overtaken by bermuda grass.  It's going to be fun sifting it out this fall, NOT!  I hate bermuda grass.  On the bright side I have sources for a lot of cuttings to send home with you.

I'm sitting here playing with oil dry and have eight varieties rooting well in plain ole sand.  Wonder if I'm wasting time but curiosity gets the best of me.  

[QUOTE=cis4elk]

Igor, didn't you root some cuttings directly in Turface outdoors?

Hi everybody. Just have couples spare minutes and after reading your discussion, decided to share some info also.. First of all just want to tell you some real truth of life...sometimes  even human being die (from hundreds of known and unknown reasons..) -lets accept it  Secondly..of course it is good to experiment sometimes but do not forget old style techniques and methods. I will give you one example. I keep my Cuttings  in the containers covered from all sides with damp wood chips.. I water them slightly several times during winter storage . Don't even ask me what I see in the early Spring! The sea of Roots... but at the same time under similar almost ( practically ) identical conditions, some Cuttings in the same Container have no Roots at all!  I am  also 100% sure that the main reason for the Cuttings to die is over watering !!!! The second reason is drying out of the Cutting. You can use covering with the soda Bottle , or any other type of Containers suitable for these mini green houses, but check them regularly for Mold . I also used to leave only One bud above the ground level. When I want to have several Plants from 1 cutting or branch I put ( bury ) them horizontally and thus, soon I have several new plants sometimes even from each bud of the Cutting. Again...do not over water !  To multiply your own trees or from your good neighbor's tree the best thing is Air layering with the use of peat moss, laying down a branch on the ground or you can use any cup with soil fixed to this un skinned spot of the downed or  vertical Branch.    Hope it will help to increase your rate of success in this endeavor.

[QUOTE=evladi7654]Hi everybody. Just have couples spare minutes and after reading your discussion, decided to share some info also.. First of all just want to tell you some real truth of life...sometimes  even human being die (from hundreds of known and unknown reasons..) -lets accept it  Secondly..of course it is good to experiment sometimes but do not forget old style techniques and methods. I will give you one example. I keep my Cuttings  in the containers covered from all sides with damp wood chips.. I water them slightly several times during winter storage . Don't even ask me what I see in the early Spring! The sea of Roots... but at the same time under similar almost ( practically ) identical conditions, some Cuttings in the same Container have no Roots at all!  I am  also 100% sure that the main reason for the Cuttings to die is over watering !!!! The second reason is drying out of the Cutting. You can use covering with the soda Bottle , or any other type of Containers suitable for these mini green houses, but check them regularly for Mold . I also used to leave only One bud above the ground level. When I want to have several Plants from 1 cutting or branch I put ( bury ) them horizontally and thus, soon I have several new plants sometimes even from each bud of the Cutting. Again...do not over water !  To multiply your own trees or from your good neighbor's tree the best thing is Air layering with the use of peat moss, laying down a branch on the ground or you can use any cup with soil fixed to this un skinned spot of the downed or  vertical Branch.    Hope it will help to increase your rate of success in this endeavor.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  I like rooting in wood chips compost.  These were cuttings buried in the wood chips last fall/winter outdoors and came up in the spring without any other help.  They also out grew any of my other plants compared to one season growth.  They have added a foot or more height and lateral limbs since this photo.

 

It's not so much increase of success rate I seek in experimenting, rather just satisfy my curiosity.  That's just me. :) 
 

This looks suspicious to me.  Any of you ever seen white stuff forming on the clay granules? 

 

Is it fungus? My granules are much drier in a coco mix, nothing like that would grow since there is not enough moisture. I think you just discovered something new!

[QUOTE=greenfig]Is it fungus? My granules are much drier in a coco mix, nothing like that would grow since there is not enough moisture. I think you just discovered something new![/QUOTE]

I don't know what it is.  If it turns green it's outa here!

Would there be any kind of salt concentration in that product I wonder?

[QUOTE=tylerj]Would there be any kind of salt concentration in that product I wonder?[/QUOTE]

The GH FloraMato I've been using as nutrient for these the past week is white so perhaps it's re-crystallizing on the clay surface.  Shouldn't be that much of a concentration of it to worry about, using so little of it and have only dipped them a few times.  I'll watch this very close.  Trichoderma and other fungi start out white and turns green as it begins to spore.

Finally a sign of life.



Edit - After poking around, I have decided since there are no roots on any of the clay experiment subjects, to discontinue this experiment.  All cuttings have been transferred to grow bags with sand, like the rest.  Sand appears to wick better and I can't argue with results in the former wicking sand bucket experiment.  If they were common cuttings I might let them stay just to see but with these I don't just want to see. 

The elephant in the room is how are you going to get them out once they root?  With perlite you can float them out.  With this stuff and the sand you'll probably have to put the containers in a much larger water bath and tilt them on their sides.  Or do you have a better way in mind?

[QUOTE=rcantor]The elephant in the room is how are you going to get them out once they root?  With perlite you can float them out.  With this stuff and the sand you'll probably have to put the containers in a much larger water bath and tilt them on their sides.  Or do you have a better way in mind?[/QUOTE]

This stuff is no more.  All were put in sand last night.  Hadn't planned on taking them out till Spring and will figure something out.  Have a big tote out back used to dunk mushroom logs that will probably work.   

Charlie, thanks for trying! So now we know, from your hard work! : )

Frank from Bama