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Subject: Degree days... Replies: 7
Posted By: congatom Views: 387
 
Definitely worth a look if you are interested in the degree day information for growers and IPM people....People have asked about it here on this forum, so I figured, I show you where to go and look up the data....It is pretty easy, but you have know your weather station and they have a 'busy site' ...it can be tough on the eyes! But just look around on your state...all available stations and probably start with clicking 2015 and up pops the degree day data and a fancy graph too...:) It is really good information for all growers and it is free and right there if you know where to look...:)

Subject: Degree days... Replies: 7
Posted By: congatom Views: 387
 
Here is some information that you may not know about....Go to the IPM site...It is USDA Integrated Pest Management and it gives you degree days data for YEARS!!! This is what you do:

Go to this link: http://pnwpest.org/wea/

Go to the header Map Index and click...You will be given a map....Click on your state...a pop will say table interface all stations...select that one.....

You have to know your closest weather station, but that is not a big deal....I clicked on Corvallis 13 for Starker Arts Weather Station and clicked on 2015 and up pops the degree day data! We are 34 days ahead in 2015 so far in Corvallis. That is why figs broke dormancy end of Feb....

People have asked about degree days and you HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO TRACK YOUR FIG!!! Just looking at this degree day information for where you live give you a whole heck of a lot of information for those who track their fig plants...When did they break...how many degree days in 2015? Now you can find out and make predictions for next year based on this years or decades worth of degree day data!

Its a great resource for all growers, but you people have mentioned it on here and I know a little about the site as I worked with the USDA and a PhD committee member worked on hop powdery mildew IPM models that are probably used on this site! It is just not 'HEAT' that ripens fruit, this degree day thing is important! So here you go...:)


Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
My guess is the feminized pollen is not P lethal and that is the landrace fig way to ensure reproductive success....These plants are all hermie and selection has just altered that hermaphrodite bell curve as edible female fig is point of selection!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
So is the feminized pollen viable and does it have the P allele? My guess is yes on both accounts given landrace fig can self on occasion...Like the seeds I am getting on eBay....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
I doubt that GA3 feminized pollen to be P allele lethal. I hypothesize again, that edible female fig are pure pistillate hermaphrodites and pistillate hermaphrodites and there is NO APOMIXIS...The occasional female seed is the mother plant selfing herself with gaP/ga+ pollen and getting around the egg P lethal problem and ensuring reproductive success as ALL FIG ARE HERMAPHRODITE!

Gynodioecious ARE PURE PISILLATE HERMAPHRODITES! Now, because these 'female' fig are actually hermaphrodite, they can make male parts...but the pollen is ALL FEMALE and looks to be 50% persistent....and numbers are really good with S1 seed production as YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING and THERE ARE NO MALES! You just deal with 50% persistence gene....If you don't have to deal with males AT ALL IN THE BREEDING EQUATION....YOUR NUMBERS ARE WAY BETTER RIGHT OFF THE BAT!


Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Again, sorry about the few math errors, but tend to miss things and go back and catch them. But the mistakes I made are minor and DO NOT ALTER MY POSITION AT ALL!!! S1 in fig appears to be the way to go IF viable feminized pollen can be produced in the Breba and its looks like this is the case....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
I don't think I made any more mistakes in my Punnett square analysis with this feminized fig stuff....But when you take the males out of the breeding equation....you are doing something right.....and it looks like they are doing it or attempting it in Japan.....I came on here to fill you in about fig being all hermie and YOU PEOPLE gave me the SLAM DUNK INFO on the Japanese and GA3....I didn't know about that part off the bat....But with that information....Yeah, I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING OR ATTEMPTING, YOU FIG PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE AND THAT'S WHY I AM FILLING YOU IN! YOU NEED THAT GA3 PAPER IF IT IS AVAILABLE AND IT MOST-LIKELY IS AVAILABLE...BUT IN ANY CASE, SOME OF YOU HAVE THE GA3 CONCENTRATION THEY USED AS SOMEONE POSTED HERE AND I SAW IT! SO GIVE IT YOUR BEST COLLEGE EFFORT THEIR FIG BREEDERS!!! Evidence suggests, this may work, give it a shot!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
I don't about the Japanese fig breeding other than someone chimed in here and mentioned that there is a paper or some notes available that say the Japanese are using GA3 with their fig. The person even listed a GA3 concentration! You fig people just HAD NO CLUE ABOUT FEMINIZED SEED PRODUCTION BECAUSE YOU THINK FEMALE EDIBLE FIG IS GYNODIOECIOUS AND THAT'S A BAD DESCRIPTION!!! ALL FIG ARE HERMIES EVEN IF THEY HAVE NO MALE FLOWER PARTS VISIBLE!!! THEY ARE ALL HERMIES AND HAVE THE DNA FOR MALE FLOWER PARTS.....THE RESULTING POLLEN IS ALL ga+ AND gaP .....The persistence is passed as P is most-likely NOT LETHAL IN FEMINIZED POLLEN! The Japanese have clued in on this...NO SURPRISE....The stoner Cannabis breeders are using this technique, but the fig breeders are in the 'FIG DALK AGES' inn part because fig breeders are still stuck on the notion that female edible fig is Gynodioecious and never thought to challenge that notion and look to see what they are doing in other related crops like Cannabis! Cannabis was in Moracea, before the taxonomy 'splitters' made the Cannabis family of plants with hop and hemp. But fig and Cannabis ARE RELATED and BOTH ARE HERMIES 100% across the board and that leaves open the possibility of making feminized pollen for S1 seed production as 100 female fig is SHHHH......REALLY PURE PISTILLATE HERMAPHRODITE!!! THE FIG PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THIS....SHHHH....:) Come on fig breeders!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
One more error in my Punnet squares.....Not bad though and the comparison favors S1's all the way. When you cross a female persistent fig, you have ga+ alleles in the egg only....all with P alleles die....So when you cross ga+ female gametes with 'feminized' gaP/ga+ pollen, you get 100% female and 50% persistent....That's still way better than using a male for pollen! Half of the offspring will be male BEFORE taking into account persistence and you really do not know how the male contributes to the female pheno just by looking! Again, no wonder the Japanese are using GA3......Sorry for the slight math errors, but it's been a while since I did three gene Punnets and I tend to catch myself when I do simple mistakes like this...:) But still....NO MALES AND 50% persistent......and you know what you are getting.....my gosh!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Man, in about 5 years or so, there may be a lot of S1 fig hybrids around....Hopefully not all from Japan.....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Hey Hiro, I had to tell them because it is a WAY COOL quantitative genetic breeding system with genes and a wasp and you can play with GA3....Play from a plant breeder point of view.....Man, I had to tell them...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
I did not show the parent allele column but with the female it ONLY recessive ga.....with the hetero male the bi-alleles are GA and ga....50% males EVEN BEFORE TAKING INTO ACCOUNT PERSISTENCE??? Oh man...:( It's funny because Hiro is probably saying, "Tom, why did you have to fill them in? Now were are going to have too many fig!" ....Sorry Hiro...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
One more error on my part, but not a biggie....You get 50% persistent when crossing the persistent caprifig onto a edible female fig, BUT, I LEFT THIS OUT....1/2 of those will be male as you are using a male as one of the parents.....look at heterocaprifig below.....YOU BETTER HOPE YOU HAVE A HETERO TOO!!!! So IF you have a hetero caprifig and you cross onto a female edible fig, YOU GET A LOT FEWER PERSISTENT FEMALES AS YOU HAVE MALES TO DEAL WITH ALONG WITH PERSISTENCE. WHEN YOU USE 'FEMINIZED' POLLEN, YOU GET ALL FEMALE AND YOU JUST NEED TO DEAL WITH PERSISTENCE AND 25% gaP/gaP eggs never make it...THAT IS WAY BETTER THAN USING A CAPRIFIG AND YOU BETTER HOPE WHEN YOU USE A CAPRIFIG IT IS HETERO! NO WONDER THE JAPANESE ARE USING GA3 and going the synthetic hybrid route using 'feminized' pollen.....using caprifig males and the NUMBERS SUCK!!!
homo caprifig                     heterocaprifig
All GA/ga Male 1/2 GA/ga Male *
1/2 ga/ga Female *

 

* = Most likely genotypic combination: Homozygous female tree x heterozygous caprifig.

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
However, Roberts Clarks assessment on Cannabis is applicable to fig as fig really all hermies and Robert is even suggesting this when he mentions the 'one of degree' thing......So from there the Cannabis breeders got a hold of the 1972 paper on using GA3 to produce 'feminized' pollen and since males are the BANE of Cannabis growers....Here we are 15 years later with stoners breeding for 'feminized seed' and the Cannabis breeding industry has just taken off....All the while, Japan, looks like they understand what is really going on in fig and that the pure pistillates are either pistillate hermies or pure pistillate hermies and with their knowledge of GA3 (as they discovered it)...most-likely working on a 'hunch' like what I am suggesting to all of you....it looks like the Japanese have worked out feminized pollen production using GA3 in breba fig. To think, this might actually work in fig and we can get S1 hybrids....2/3 persistant too and ALL FEMALE!!! MY GOSH!!!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Only problem, Robert Clarke whiffed on the last sentence of the first paragraph and he MEANT TO SAY "Therefore, the difference between 'DIOECIOUS' and hermaphrodism is one of degree determined by genetics and environment.... He is talking about dioecious and hermies and then therefore for the monoecious and that is not correct.....But I know what he meant to say as I AM SAYING IT! Again, ROBERT IS TALKING ABOUT THE HERMIE BELL CURVE!!! When it is ONE OF DEGREE, GENETIC AND ENVIRONMENT....THAT BE QUANTITATIVE!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Here is some 'Old School' info on Cannabis and hermies it relates well to fig too!

From R.C. Clarke's Marijuana Botany.....

Sex - Attempts to breed offspring of only one sexual type have led to more misunderstanding than any other facet of Cannabis genetics. The discoveries of McPhee (1925) and Schaffner (1928) showed that pure sexual type and hermaphrodite conditions are inherited and that the percentage of sexual types could be altered by crossing with certain hermaphrodites. Since then it has generally been assumed by researchers and breeders that a cross between ANY unselected hermaphrodite plant and a pistillate seed-parent should result in a population of all pistillate offspring. This is not the case. In most cases, the offspring of hermaphrodite parents tend toward hermaphrodism, which is largely unfavorable for the production of Cannabis other than fiber hemp. This is not to say that there is no tendency for hermaphrodite crosses to alter sex ratios in the offspring. The accidental release of some pollen from predominantly pistillate hermaphrodites, along with the complete eradication of nearly every staminate and staminate hermaphrodite plant may have led to a shift in sexual ratio in domestic populations of sinsemilla drug Cannabis. It is commonly observed that these strains tend toward 60% to 80% pistillate plants and a few pistillate hermaphrodites are not uncommon in these populations.
However, a cross can be made which will produce nearly all pistillate or staminate individuals. If the proper pistillate hermaphrodite plant is selected as the pollen-parent and a pure pistillate plant is selected as the seed-parent it is possible to produce an F1, and subsequent generations, of nearly all pistillate offspring. The proper pistillate hermaphrodite pollen-parent is one which has grown as a pure pistillate plant and at the end of the season, or under artificial environmental stress, begins to develop a very few staminate flowers. If pollen from these few staminate flowers forming on a pistillate plant is applied to a pure pistillate seed parent, the resulting F1 generation should be almost all pistillate with only a few pistillate hermaphrodites. This will also be the case if the selected pistillate hermaphrodite pollen source is selfed and bears its own seeds. Remember that a selfed hermaphrodite gives rise to more hermaphrodites, but a selfed pistillate plant that has given rise to a limited number of staminate flowers in response to environmental stresses should give rise to nearly all pistillate offspring. The F1 offspring may have a slight tendency to produce a few staminate flowers under further environmental stress and these are used to produce F2 seed. A monoecious strain produces 95+% plants with many pistillate and staminate flowers, but a dioecious strain produces 95+% pure pistillate or staminate plants. A plant from a dioecious strain with a few inter-sexual flowers is a pistillate or staminate hermaphrodite. Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment.

Crosses may also be performed to produce nearly all staminate offspring. This is accomplished by crossing a pure staminate plant with a staminate plant that has produced a few pistillate flowers due to environmental stress, or selfing the latter plant. It is readily apparent that in the wild this is not a likely possibility. Very few staminate plants live long enough to produce pistillate flowers, and when this does happen the number of seeds produced is limited to the few pistillate flowers that occur. In the case of a pistillate hermaphrodite, it may produce only a few staminate flowers, but each of these may produce thousands of pollen grains, any one of which may fertilize one of the plentiful pistillate flowers, producing a seed. This is
another reason that natural Cannabis populations tend toward predominantly pistillate and pistillate hermaphrodite plants. Artificial hermaphrodites can be produced by hormone sprays, mutilation, and altered light cycles. These should prove most useful for fixing traits and sexual type.

Drug strains are selected for strong dioecious tendencies. Some breeders select strains with a sex ratio more nearly approaching one than a strain with a high pistillate sex ratio. They believe this reduces the chances of pistillate plants turning hermaphrodite later in the season.

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Ok, I am done for today I think....That is enough for all you to think about....Again, I present things they way I do....It's like PULLING A BANDAID! If you don't like it...sorry....When I see errors in science....especially plant science and plant breeding...I will chime in and give you all an education if need be! I am just trying to help you people out as you have ALL THE INFORMATION, but you are not connecting the dots correctly and I'm an expert on hemphrodite plant complex breeding systems and I had chime in....get out the fig breeding 'dark ages' please....and don't take offense...I'm just trying to give you information that you obviously have no clue exists so that you can accelerate you breeding success and not have to worry about "We don't have Davis or LSU any more!" SO WHAT!!! Look at the stoner Cannabis breeders and what they have done using GA3! No excuses people....Giddy up....It is going to be a while before you fig breeders catch up to the stoners...:) Friendly ribbing people...:) I got to go...cheers all...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
He assures they are fertile selfed seeds and I get money back if he is wrong...he's not wrong....He has a pistillate hermie landrace fig and is harvesting seeds and selling them....:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Apomixis gets around sexual gametes and uses regular 2N cells for the offspring and are a diploid clone of the mother...There is no 'true egg', but again, I am no expert on apomixis...I'll tell you that right now...But my guess is since apomixis does not involve an egg cell, the lethal thing may not come into play at all. I cannot comment further than this. However, when I get those seed from Canada....If I get 2/3 persistant fig offspring then I am most-likely correct that ALL FIG are hermies and the genetic system is gaP/ga+ over the hermie bell curve. If I get 50% persistant females, then I suspect this guy in Canada used a persistant caprifig and if its apomixis....100% persistant(???) Again, I have to look at apomixis more carefully, but I don't think it involves an egg, so no egg lethal and all persistant as it is a REAL CLONE of the mother??? So, for  me, next step is germinate those fig seeds and see the ratio of persistance. Is it 2 out of 3, 50/50, 100% or 0% (C. caprifig?? Those are like 1 in 1000 right ??)....So, IF this guy in Canda has VIABLE selfed fig seed from landrace....I suspect I will get 2/3 persistant....Anything else...especially 50/50 tells me he used a persistant caprifig and 100% out of my 24 seeds would be most-likely apomixis and think is HIGHLY UNLIKELY! Then I could get all garbage...HE USED A C. caprifig....Or he is selling non-fertile seeds...but he says they are fertile and I believe him...I bet I will get 2/3 persistant female fig that are close to clones of the mother!  1/3 no fruits...garbage.....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Hard to predict what you are going to get with male plants....Same goes in Cannabis...that's why they are doing all the feminized seed production for the stoners....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Also, looking at the Cross Between Persistent Female Tree (P+) and Persistent Caprifig (P+): only 50% of the offspring are persistant! When you make an S1 cross, 2/3 of the offspring will be persistant! You get a greater degree of persistance in S1 hybrid and inbred line production and you get the blending of the two selected female parents...so you can kinda predict what you are getting in the resulting persistant offspring in the S1....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Still those odds on a selfing are pretty good....2/3 of the plants are near clones of the mother! Same will be true for S1 hybrids using feminized pollen...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
What is also quite interesting is that by germinating these 'assured viable' fig seeds I will know if this is pistillate hermaphrodite or apomixis! If what is going on is pistillate hermaphrodite, I expect only 2/3 of the seed to be persistant. If it is apomixis, 100% should be persistant.....According to the Punnett Square genetics on persistance I read about.....If it is apomixis, 100% clonal looking plants....Pistillate hermie instead I get 2/3 persistant and 1/3 garbage....correct my genetics if you see a problem....I already corrected myself once with the Persistance alleles being P and +...Sorry about that, but I do not think I made any more mistakes....I cannot wait to germinate those fig seeds and see what I get....2/3 persistant or 100%??? I bet it is 2/3...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
1/3 of my plants will be trash...no biggie...:) I think it is way cool that fig are actually all hermie and S1 crosses and inbreds can be made....Yeah, this is way cool...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
So if these seeds are selfed landrace....2/3 should be persistant and be almost clones of the mother and 1/3 not persistant....BIG DEAL!!!!

 

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Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
In an S1 cross, the 2/3 persistant will be a blending of the two choice female landrace cultivars you selected for the cross....You kinda know what you are getting!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
So when a gaP/ga+ persistant fig female cultivar is selfed, 25% of the seed die and the in the rest of the seed 2/3 are persistant and 1/3 xx......That is WAY BETTER THAN 1 in 1000 or the space and numbers when using male caprifig! Again, no wonder the Japanese are doing this!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Also, someone might have already figured this one out....

When you cross gaP/ga+ x gaP/ga+ you get 25% gaP/gaP, 50% gaP/ga+ and 25 ga+/ga+....So, 25% would have just P allele and they would die as they would all be egg lethal.....So, you are left with 2/3 persistant female S1 hybrids and 1/3 non-persistant....still, looking at the numbers....2/3 persistance is pretty good.

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
The P allele is in the female fig, but those eggs die and it is never passed...SO? What does that have to do with GA3 induction of male flower structures in the pistillate hermie or pure pistillate hermie prized fig landrace cultivar for viable gaP/ga+ feminized pollen for S1 hybrid prooduction? THE P ALLELE IS EGG LETHAL AND NOT SPERM LETHAL...EVEN 'FEMINIZED SPERM' WITH THE P ALLELE...HOW ABOUT THAT?...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Yeah, so the P allele is egg lethal...the FEMALE CULTIVAR HAS THE P ALLELE AND THOSE EGGS DIE!!! SO??? WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH CHEMICALLY INDUCING 'FEMINIZED' gaP/ga+ pollen WHICH IS NOT LETHAL...OH AND VIABLE???

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
I showed the genetics as gaP+/gaP+ when it should be gaP/ga+ viable feminized pollen, right? Yeah, looking at the chart above the alleles persistence are P and + and egg lethal, but not sperm lethal...So again feminized pollen (sperm) NOT LETHAL AND WE SHOULD BE OK!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Oops, the Caprfig is P and +, but that does not change what I said...P IS EGG LETHAL AND NOT SPERM LETHAL!!! FEMINIZED POLLEN IS VIABLE AND PERSISTENT AND ALL FEMALE!!!!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Again, looking at the genetics of 'FEMINIZED POLLEN' gaP+/gaP+ and VIABLE (most-likely)....MY GOSH...THE FUN THINGS FIG BREEDERS CAN DO WITH THIS INFO!!!! GA3 is a natural plant hormone, by the way, for those who do not know. It can just do some funky things in plants at high concentrations relative to normal concentrations in plant cells. Someone asked about GA3 and root formation...NO...Rooting compounds are Auxins IAA and whatnot and some Cytokinins for cell division I think...go look a bottle of Olivia's rooting gel.....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
The only question I have is: Is the feminized pollen gaP+/gaP+ viable? But given what goes on in landrace fig naturally producing feminized all female seed from all female pollen, my guess is, the Japanese technique works and YOU GOT THE GA3 concentration now people!!! Someone must have that paper and I am just filling you on a few things by giving you some information you clearly know nothing about and connecting some dots for fig breeders...thats all....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
The biggest reason why I am confident this will work and persistance will not be an issue is in the landrace natural pistillate hermie fig that produce the occasional viable seed! The offspring IS A NEAR CLONE OF THE MOTHER WITH JUST A LITTLE SOMA CLONAL VARIATION IN THE QUANTITATIVE GENETICS OF THE OFFSPRING. So, you get the same taste, but STRENGTH MAY VARY, YIELD MAY VARY....Things like that...but the amount of variation will vary...:) Some S1 crosses might yield CLONE-LIKE RESULTS!!! It happens in Cannabis!

So when a S1 hybrid cross gaP+/gaP+ x gaP+/gaP+, a cross that 'NORMALLY' would never happen, gives you gaP+/gaP+ offspring 100%. What's not to like?

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Again, I do not see ANYTHING in the genetics of feminized pollen production that would raise red flags and tell me this S1 hybrid breeding using GA3 on fig breba would not work! If they wrote a paper about it in Japan and published it...THE TECHNIQUE PROBABLY WORKS!!! I am JUST FILLING ALL YOU FIG BREEDERS AND 'POTENTIAL' FIG BREEDER IN ABOUT WHAT LOOKS TO BE GOING ON IN FIG USING PUBLISHED INFORMATION ON FIG GENETICS TO BACK ME UP ALONG WITH INFORMATION ON HERMIE AND DIOECIOUS CONDITION IN PLANTS AND HOW THAT RELATES TO QUANTITATIVE GENETIC BREEDING SYSTEMS IN THESE PLANTS!

Oh, AND ALTHOUGH I USE SOME FANCY SCIENCE WORDS...THIS IS SIMPLE!!!! STONERS ARE DOING THIS IN CANNABIS...COME ON!!! YOU PEOPLE HAD ALL THE INFORMATION BUT AGAIN, WERE NOT CONNECTING THE DOTS CORRECTLY AND I DECIDED YOU NEEDED TO BE FILLED IN TO GET YOU OUT OF THE 'FIG BREEDING DARK AGES' AND GET IT TO THE STATUS EQUAL TO THAT OF 'FEMINIZED SEED PRODUCTION' IN CANNABIS....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
I am using ALL the genetics the fig breeders talk about.. I just say get rid of 'MULE FLOWER'.. that is just WRONG and understand that fig is not Gynodioecious! That is just a BAD TERM TO USE IN FIG!!! FIG ARE HERMIES ACROSS THE BOARD!!! The ONLY REASON the 'Hermaphrodite Bell Curve' has been shifted in common fig is because of intervention! I bet if you look at wild fig populations the breeding system looks exactly like the Hermaphrodite Bell Curve' I showed you prior with the majority of plants being straight up Hermie and pure pistillate hermies and pure staminate hermies as outliers. It is just with selection that the natural 'Hermaphrodite Bell Curve' has been shifted in fig, Cannabis and hop to favor the pistillate hermaphrodites and pure pistillate hermies....

Pure staminate Hermie (GAP/gaP)---->Staminate Hermie(GAP/gaP)----->Hermie(GAP/gaP)<-----Pistillate Hermie(gaP/gaP)<------Pure Pistillate Hermie(gaP/gaP)

The above would be WILD POPULATIONS OF CANNBIS, HOP AND PROBABLY FIG TOO! Selection has altered the distribution as we IGNORE HERMIES in Cannabis and hop and and concentrate on the pistillate hermie and pure pistillate hermie plants....same for fig.....But my guess would be, go out in the wild and you will find the about disttribution in wild fig with most plants being straight up hermie and fewer staminate hermies and even fewer pure staminate hermies and same goes for the pistillate side of the bell curve.....The above is a wild population 'NORMAL DISTRIBUTION'...bell curve...like in grade school...WHERE AM I ON THE CURVE? We all know about that...but this hermie bell curve in Cannabis, hop and now looks like fig has been altered/shifted by selection, but the above genetic breeding system and distribution appears to be going on in fig too! That is all I am saying and you can take fig out of the FIG BREEDING DARK AGES with just a little more solid information about what looks to be going on in fig....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Just remember on the above chart the pollen is not coming from a male Caprifig BUT A FEMALE COMMON FIG SELECT CULTIVAR PURE PISTILLATE HERMIE THAT IS FORCED INTO CREATING MALE SEX ORGANS WITH gaP+/gaP+ viable pollen...which most landrace fig can make naturally as they are all pistillate hermies pure pistillate hermies that can make feminized viable pollen....Again, if they have a paper on this in Japan, IT WORKS OR THEY WOULD NOT HAVE PUBLISHED! And if it is GA3, I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING AS I AM AN EXPERT ON QUANTITATIVE GENETIC BREEDING SYSTEMS IN HERMAPHRODITE PLANTS...Cannabis, hop and now looks like fig too...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Again the Japanese are using GA3 BECAUSE IT WORKS IN CREATING S1 fig hybrids! What do you get when you cross gaP+/gaP+ x gaP+/gaP+(feminized viable pollen)? You get gaP+/gaP+ female plants 100% across the board! Look at the genetics I just wrote down...IT IS CORRECT and REALIZE that feminized gaP+/gaP+ pollen is VIABLE! BOY, THAT OPENS LOTS OF S1 HYBRID BREEDING POSSIBLITIES!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
According to the above chart, when you add in the FEMINIZED POLLEN gaP/gaP...PERSISTANCE WILL PASS.....AGAIN, THIS IS 'FEMINIZED POLLEN WITH THE GENETICS gaP/gaP and VIABLE! Cross this on to female cultivar gaP/gaP and what do you get? NEXT!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
When I look at this: Put in the feminized pollen P+....They leave it out in a NORMAL cross and that is fine....THIS IS NOT A NORMAL CROSS....THE POLLEN IS gaP/gaP. There is no gaP/gaP pollen in a pistillate hermie or pure pistillate hermie in fig...Look at the chart...but that is for female x male cross and PERSISTANCE should pass as we have synthetic gaP/gaP viable 'feminized' pollen.

Cross Between Persistent Female Tree (P+) and Persistent Caprifig (P+):

 

Alleles in Eggs Of Seed Parent
P is "Egg Lethal" & Cannot Be in Egg
PP and P+ Progeny Not Possible
Alleles In Sperm Of Caprifig Pollen Parent
P
+
-----
-----
-----
+
P+
++

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Come on KEEP THEM COMING THERE FIG BREEDERS...I GOT YA!!! Just ribbing...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
You not getting the genetics of this persistance. Persistance is sex linked and when you use a male/female system of breeding, the male 'CONFERS' that DNA TO THE PROGENY! IT 'CONFERS' IT TO THE FEMALE PROGENY SO 'P' IS IN THERE!!! IT WILL PASS IN A gaP/gaP feminized pollen onto a gaP/gaP female select cultivar fig. Look at what I am saying and look at the genetics I gave you...Persistance WILL PASS in a gaP/gaP x gaP/gaP synthetic hybrid cross....NEXT!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Two gene is QUANTITATIVE THERE FIG BREEDERS! This makes fig a 'COMPLEX BREEDING SYSTEM' and ALL ARE HERMIE, no matter what you have been told prior! All female and all male plants are HERMIES!!! Go get some GA3 and I WILL SHOW YOU!!! Whether they produce male flowers or not or whether some stress like drought, light or GA3 chemical...SO? THEY ARE ALL HERMIES ON THAT BELL CURVE!!! THAT MEANS WITH COMPLEX BREEDING SYSTEM AND THE FACT THERE ARE FIG PISTILLATE HERMAPHRODITES OPENS UP HUGE, NEW BREEDING PROJECTS THAT COULD NEVER BE DONE IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE FACT THAT ALL FIG ARE HERMIES ON THAT HERMIE BELL CURVE!!! I GIVE YOU FIG BREEDERS 10 YEARS TO CATCH UP TO THE 'STONER' CANNABIS BREEDERS....MAN, THEY ARE SHOWING YOU PEOPLE UP! Just friendly 'ribbing' there fig breeders....You can catch up to the stoner Cannabis breeders and do some good stuff using GA3 and get some good results.

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
After reading the genetics of fig in that link....it's QUANTITATIVE in nature! QUANTITATIVE GENETICISTS DON'T WORK ON SINGLE GENE TRAITS. IF IT IS 'SINGLE GENE', IT'S NOT QUANTITATIVE! Hey, FIG IS TWO GENE GA/ga, in which the 'phenotypic expression' of the GA/ga sexual phenotype regulated by other unknown genes that modify the GA/ga expression resulting in a wide range of GA/GA, GA/ga and ga/ga phenotypes we see.

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Those landrace pistillate hermaphrodite (ga/ga) fig are VALUABLE BREEDING TOOLS! Especially now that it looks like GA3 can be used on the breba to get feminized (ga/ga) pollen and make synthetic S1 hybrids of superior female cultivars....Man, you fig breeders have about 15 years of catching to do to catch up to the 'stoner' Cannabis breeders and this 'feminized seed' thing!...:)

Hey, but figs are legal in all 50 states, so even if it takes 5 years to see the results, THERE SHOULD BE A LOT OF YOU DOING THIS EASY GA3 manipulation and in 5 to 10 years, decentralized fig breeding can be 'SHOWCASE BREEDING PROGRAM' just like feminized Cannabis seed breeding is right now! Giddy up! I want in-expensive S1 hybrid fig seeds please!...:)

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
That is why we are seeing so much variation in sex expression in fig and GA3 works making feminized pollen....FIGS ARE ALL HERMIE WITH A GA/ga two gene sex expression that is 'modified' through quantitative genetic regulator genes....There are most-likely 'suites of genes' that regulate the expression of the GA/ga genes resulting in varied phenos.....And this is what we are seeing in fig!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
Again, because we see huge phenotypic differences across fig in terms of flower production and now showing that GA3 can be used to induce male flowers.....This suggests that yeah there are two genes, but their phenotypic 'EXPRESSION' appears to be modified by quantitative genetic mechanisms! Hermaphrodite condition most-likely has some form of quantitative genetic regulation of phenotype expression due to the 'regulation of expression' of those two genes!

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
So again, although fig has what looks to be a two gene system for sex determination GA/ga system...Looking at the fig phenotypes and what we see, suggests there is some quantitative genetic 'REGULATION' of this two gene system....

Subject: Fig breeding Replies: 113
Posted By: congatom Views: 1,951
 
When those pistillate hermaphrodite fig that produce the occasional viable seed self, you get a genetic copy of ga/ga female as the plant selfed itself. You are not going to get any males, no San Pedro and no Smyrna fig! You get all genetic copies of the mother! So why when you take ga/ga 'feminized' pollen and use it in a cross on a different ga/ga edible fig (not Desert King) and get 1/3, 1/3, 1/3??? It does not make sense!

When making a synthetic S1 cross using 'feminized' ga/ga pollen, I EXPECT 100% female common edible fig all of pretty good quality, just a blending of the two superior female phenos ga/ga.....The only minor differences should be the minor amount of soma clonal variation that takes place during genetic recombination during meiosis. However there is very little crossing over during meiosis in plants and it usually just results in differences in yield. But his being said, the Japanese are using this simple technique for a reason...IT WORKS!!! If it works....ALL FIG ARE HERMAPHRODITE! Go back to this:

Staminate male(GA/ga..GA/GA??)-----> Staminate hermie(GA/ga...GA/GA??)------>Hermie(GA/ga)<-----Pistillate hermie(ga/ga)<-------Pistillate(ga/ga)

If you can ignore 3 out of the 5 and use pistillate hermie ga/ga and pistillate ga/ga in synthetic crosses using feminized ga/ga pollen....why do anything else? Unless were do not have enough landrace fig to work with and that appears not to be the case!